Hardware Feature comparison?

What would be more interesting would be to get ACT the improved Firmware so that they can provide it in their ongoing controllers and remotes and modules and whatnot and get other folk's controllers upgraded (for a fee I'm sure.) One problem right now is that the controllers are behind the Z-Wave toolkit by a good bit.
 
BTW, no amount of tweaking of firmware is going to make Z-Wave a high speed network. So, to the degree that low latency feedback is important, and it often is in order to be useful, a multi-hundred module system is probably going to be a bit over the top for Z-Wave. If the average poll time in even a small network (where the controller can get to all module directly and not require extra routing) is in the 1 to 2 second'ish range, even if you do overlapped polling (which we do), 200 modules is going to have pretty bad latency if all of those need to be two way.

If you keep 5 overlapping polls going at any one time, and all of the modules are completely happy and respond in the 1 to 2 seconds range, you'd take 40 to 80 seconds to make it around the list and get back to the start. If you tried to keep 10 going at once, it would be 20 to 40 seconds. And the bigger the network the more hops any one message will have to take along the way, which also slows the response time, so the above numbers would actually probably larger.

I'm not sure what the limit is on how hard you push the number of overlapping polls, though we'll be exploring that, but at some point you will overwhelm the Z-Wave network (which isn't very fast) and have so much simulataneous activing going on that it will just bog down.

If you treat many of them as just one way, it would obviously be a lot more practical. But how really desirable is it to have a large building of things being controlled without feedback to the control point about what those things are doing? Or to have that feedback be delayed by a minute or more?

To me, I think that there comes a point where you'd want to use something a little more upscale as you crank up the number of things under control, ultimately moving to a wired system.
 
Dean,

You make good points. Luckily, a number of Z-Wave Alliance members have been working behind the scenes to fix all of these issues and more. Some of them have already been fixed and released into products; most of the rest of them have been fixed and are making it into products set for release this upcoming quarter.

Chris
 
Chris,

I think what you're missing here is the fact that Zwave can't do 2-way status and won't ever be able to as long as Lutron maintains their tight patent on it......
 
AutomatedOutlet said:
I think what you're missing here is the fact that Zwave can't do 2-way status and won't ever be able to as long as Lutron maintains their tight patent on it......
I totally understand what you mean; your point is also very valid and well spoken.

Just to clarify, Z-Wave does in fact have 2-way status built in (both confirmation of requests to turn on/off lights, and real-time status when loads are activated, etc.). I have heard that any patents out there only apply to lighting, and not to other things (like thermostats, for instance). I will leave that issue to patent attorneys to worry about, but needless to say, and without giving away any secrets, there are multiple ways to work with or around that issue and still provide the high quality experience expected by consumers.

I believe that some of the other wireless protocols are potentially infringing on similar patents as well, so it'll be interesting to see how this all plays out.

As a side note, some of the other protocols (wired, in particular) give real-time 2-way signals. However, they suffer from problems when the network gets too big and busy where those signals can't get through, and polling becomes the only option for a consistent customer experience. Polling in those networks can get very time consuming, and can cause even more bottlenecks due to collisions, etc. etc. Right now, there's no perfect system out there.

But from what I've seen (both publicly and privately) I'm convinced that Z-Wave is the best consumer option today and for the forseeable future.

Chris
 
As a side note, some of the other protocols (wired, in particular) give real-time 2-way signals. However, they suffer from problems when the network gets too big and busy where those signals can't get through, and polling becomes the only option for a consistent customer experience

The optimum scenario, IMO, would be where modules send out changes when they change. Then the automation system's strategy becomes relatively simple, and it's efficient overall. The automation system just keeps a 'last seen' time for each module and every time a state change comes in, it stores the value and updates the last seen stamp. If it hasn't heard anything from a module in say 30 seconds, it polls it actively, to make sure that it doesn't miss anything for too long.

This means that actual live polling is very much more spread out so you can support a couple hundred modules withoug beating the network to death, you do catch modules being unplugged or going offline for some reason, and even if you fail to see a status change, you'll get it on the next status change or the next active poll (and the latency on that those last two bits is probably no worse than in a fully active polling scenario when a module goes bye-bye or glitches on a reply to an active poll.)

To me, that seems like the optimum scenario for this type of 'network of devices' type interface. What would make it even better is if a node on the network is known as the controller device and a special effort is made to insure that status change packets get to it, as apposed to just a blind broadcast of status change that would otherwise be used. I.e. status changes are directed at a specific controller node (or nodes as a multi-cast) not just flung out into the ozone as it would be in a more generalized network broadcast.
 
Lots of good info but I realize now that I failed to ask another key question that will impact my upgrade strategy decision. Do all of these X-10 alternatives have module equivalents for all of the X-10 module types I need to replace?

My house is over 100 years old and a lot of the switch locations do not have a neutral wire. Do UPB, Insteon, and Z-Wave all have modules that do not require a neutral wire?

I have a lot of dimmable screw-in X-10 light fixture modules. Do all three technologies offer screw-in modules?

I have about half a dozen locations where I use the 6-button keypadlincs with the integrated dimmer. Do all three technologies offer a similiar combined wall switch/keypad device?
 
upstatemike said:
Do UPB, Insteon, and Z-Wave all have modules that do not require a neutral wire?

I have a lot of dimmable screw-in X-10 light fixture modules. Do all three technologies offer screw-in modules?

I have about half a dozen locations where I use the 6-button keypadlincs with the integrated dimmer. Do all three technologies offer a similiar combined wall switch/keypad device?
EXCELLENT QUESTION! This gets to the heart of why I started this thread.

I don't know about neutral-less, I am sure others will answer.

I don't think that any of the 3 offer screw in modules (aka socket rocket).

KeyPadLincs, yes the Insteon will sure have them, but they aren't out yet. I don't think UPB or Z-wave have anything comparable that offer local load control AND extra transmitter buttons/functions.
 
SAI has a line of wall mounted devices that can be configured aka the keypadlinc and do local loads too. In fact, these devices feature removable faceplates allowing you to select from a large number of different switch configurations. Additionally, you can change the configuration at any time simply by snapping on a new faceplate. Here's a link showing this:

http://www.simply-automated.com/products/index.html
 
You are right about the SAI, I forgot about them as I was recently looking at the HAI UPB stuff and their multi button keypads don't do local load control.
 
WayneW said:
I don't think that any of the 3 offer screw in modules (aka socket rocket).
Intermatic has a screw-in Z-Wave module for light bulbs (the HA05), although I'm not sure if it's shipping yet.

Chris
 
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