Help getting started with UPB

[EST]

I have decided on UPB over Z wave and would like to get started installing them soon. I only want to get a few to start so I can learn about them before I buy more.

My goals are the same as everyone else but my big goal is to improve the WAF. Currently there is no WAF...she could care less about HA. So, I want to wow her so she can see the benefits...I will never get her to see the 'cool' factor so I am not looking for that.

I would like to mix and match Gen I and II for cost savings. There are some areas where I don't think I need the Gen II benefits so I figured put in Gen I to save some money. So, with that, this is what I think I need.

Gen I Switches only: 9 switches
Gen I Dimmer only: 3
Gen II Switches only: 7
Gen II Dimmer only: 9
Gen II 3-way Dimmer: 3 (All with 3 total switches)
Gen II 3-way switch: 1 (3 total switches)

I split them this way because I am still not clear if you can get a switch only without dimming capabilities.

I plan on integrating them with Elk and CQC.

So, with this info ( I'll give more if needed) where should I start? What manufacturers should I go with for Gen I (SA) and II (PCS, HAI) ? Since I am mixing, what UPB PIM should I go with? I know each has a different feel and I won't know which I like until I play with them but just looking for a starting point...what ones play well together.

Thanks
Eric

 

[Steve]

Eric,

First let me try to clear up some misinformation for you. Technically the only difference between Gen I and Gen II is noise handling. Gen II firmware is claimed to work better in a noisy environment if you configure the settings right. In a 'typical' no (or negligible) noise environment, both will perform the same. Don't be confused with some 'features' that they say are part of Gen II as they are simply lumped in there. For example they say a nice blue LED is part of Gen II, but SAI had blue LEDs before Gen II was even announced. And the Gen really has absolutely nothing to do with price. You can Get Gen I switches from SAI and the same exact switch with Gen II firmware from Web Mountain for about the same price. PCS has always been more expensive, regardless of the Gen.

And UPB switches work both as a dimmer/non dimmer. The only time you need a special relay only switch is for a large atypical load.

So, get the Gen/price thing out of your head first. I would tend to not mix Gen's unless you already have some say Gen I's and then buy some Gen II's. If you have ANY Gen II switches, you need a Gen II PIM. While a Gen I PIM will technically work with Gen II you lose the Gen noise configurability.

I would base my decision more on the feel and features, like do you want/need changeable face plates or specific color LEDs or the best quality switch and warranty. Only the SAI branded switches are currently Gen I. HAI and PCS are all Gen II. But you can get the SAI 'features' like changeable face plates by going with Web Mountain.

Other than that UPB is still UPB and they will all interoperate at a basic level regardless of brand or Gen. May get 1 of each brand if you want to get a feel for them and then go from there.

And last, consider using a regular full switch instead of the 3way controller which is crap. Its a little more but a full switch will better match and can be configured to have the LED tracked the same, etc.

Hope that helps a little.

 

[EST]

Steve,

Thanks for the info...it did clear up some misconceptions. I was comparing SA and PCS prices as to why I was going to mix (Gen I was half the price of Gen II). I have not looked into Web Mountain at all...I will take a peak at them. I just might get one of each and go from there.

Thanks,
Eric

 

[Event5]

Steve,

Thanks for the info...it did clear up some misconceptions. I was comparing SA and PCS prices as to why I was going to mix (Gen I was half the price of Gen II). I have not looked into Web Mountain at all...I will take a peak at them. I just might get one of each and go from there.

Thanks,
Eric

Have you downloaded UPStart software yet? You should start playing with it as you get the feel of the products. It can be downloaded from SA, PCS, Automated Outlet.

Dave

 

[ano]

You've made a good choice with UPB. I have HAI, CQC, and UPB, and it all works great.

Don't think you need Gen II. There is nothing wrong with it, but noise issues with UPB are pretty rare, and usually there are better ways to correct it than at the switches. My microwave oven cause noise, and a noise filter on that fixed the problem. Also, keep in mind that Simply Automated is not a big believer in Gen II, because they say, range is reduced.

Having said all that, play with the switches before deciding. Personally I really like Simply Automated switches because the replaceable faceplates with many configuration choices is very handy. And as mentioned, you really don't need relay switches much, because any SA switch can be programmed to to allow dimming. I use these switches with ceiling fans and florescent lights and they work great. I'm using LED lighting in my kitchen, and they MAY not work the best on that, but I'm still looking into it. You can mix and match brands, but generally its probably not a good idea, because the switches look and act slightly different, and the LED colors might be different.

With CQC you need to decide UPB driver or HAI/ELK driver to control lighting, and there are pros and cons to both. The CQC UPB driver has a problem, in that if you send several UPB commands in a row, they might not all get through. I'm working with the author for a fix, but the betas haven't prevented the problem for me, so be aware. Use the standard driver but add a 150ms pause between each command. I used the same computer, same PIM, with Homeseer and never had this problem, so it is a driver problem. You can also control lights through ELK/HAI.

I have all Gen I and never had much of a problem. Others like Gen II and you could go with those, but its not a universal feeling that Gen II is actually better.

 

[EST]

I just ordered 3 switches today to test...HAI, SA, Web Mountain (AO and Web Mtns fast...both have shipped already). Like in my first post my biggest fear is WAF...any noticable delay may send me packing. Reading some posts here it seems SA is popular but I will test all 3 and see what I come up with.

I still have to decide to use Elk or CQC for automation. My first inclination was to use Elk for automation, hardware over software control. I will play with CQC first and see how it goes. The more I learn about CQC, the more I like using it for automation.

I played with UPStart a while ago...but without any switches it didn't help any but that was a year ago. Unfortunately I won't be able to install until next week. I didn't get a CIM yet until I decide which brand I like best and then will buy that brands CIM.

I will keep you informed

 

[Steve]

Unless you already ruled out PCS due to price I would have gotten one of those instead of the Web Mountain. Web Mountain hardware is identical to SAI. Like I said earlier, the only difference is Web Mountain uses Gen II firmware so without any noise you will just notice some slight difference in UPStart. You will find that SAI/Web Mountain switches have a more distinct click, HAI is a little too mushy for my preference. But IMHO PCS makes the best quality switch of the bunch which is backed by their 5 year warranty.

 

[hucker]

Unless you already ruled out PCS due to price I would have gotten one of those instead of the Web Mountain. Web Mountain hardware is identical to SAI. Like I said earlier, the only difference is Web Mountain uses Gen II firmware so without any noise you will just notice some slight difference in UPStart. You will find that SAI/Web Mountain switches have a more distinct click, HAI is a little too mushy for my preference. But IMHO PCS makes the best quality switch of the bunch which is backed by their 5 year warranty.

I'd be inclined to go with Web Mountain since some of the installers here REALLY prefer the genII stuff (lightenup). I haven't had any noise problems on my SA genI stuff but I do have fear that my neighbor (or I) will install a milling machine in the garage and make my lights freak out. So far UPB has been perfect for me.

As for the delay my wife HATED it but slowly came to accept it and now doesn't mention it. I'm swapping switches a few at a time. I'd be really surprised if anybody had a problem with the newer switches as the delay almost imperceptible. My problem now is that when you have a dual rocker and you bang both at once I think both lights or the light/fan should change state at the same time, even if it has to do the links sequentially. What you get is NOTHING! I know they make this work better

I really love the UPStart software, the company did a very nice job on it. I had one thing that completely confused me. Part of it is UPStart not holding your hand a little more (e.g. Are you sure you want to transmit link 241?). There are so many places where it holds your hand telling you what it is doing this would have saved me hours...

When programming a US240 switch there is a concept of a local link #241. You must configure the switch or button that controls the local load to NOT transmit #241. What is devious is that if you program a single switch on your bench (in my case a cut up extension cord, a light bulb and no other upb devices) everything will work as you expect... I programmed about half my switches this way, one at a time, verifying operation for each switch by itself. The next day I installed them all and could not figure out why the heck all the lights were coming on most of the time. The electricians were not impressed. As you might imagine I did not uncheck that little box -- 'Rocker X transmits' on the 240's.

I don't use CQC or the elk to control my lights, I use my homevision system. This has worked very well and I suspect using the Elk will be almost equivalent. I do lighting control with scenes (links in upb speak) and then have the HV trigger the link to make the lights change state. That way all of the lights change state together rather than sending 20 light commands in sequence. It is cool to press a button and have all of the lights in the great room/kitchen/hall to dim to different levels when we have company... high WAF there and my geek friends look at me and smile...

I kept my eye open on eBay for PIM's and now have 3. One is connected to the HV ,one that goes to the PC and one is a spare. It is very nice to not have to switch cables around when configuring things. I have UPStart running at all times for UPB event logging and the homevision has its PIM that is never touched. Keep your eyes open they do come up, often times in conjunction with other switches or HA stuff.

Good luck

 

[dougmeredith]

When programming a US240 switch there is a concept of a local link #241. You must configure the switch or button that controls the local load to NOT transmit #241. What is devious is that if you program a single switch on your bench (in my case a cut up extension cord, a light bulb and no other upb devices) everything will work as you expect... I programmed about half my switches this way, one at a time, verifying operation for each switch by itself. The next day I installed them all and could not figure out why the heck all the lights were coming on most of the time. The electricians were not impressed. As you might imagine I did not uncheck that little box -- 'Rocker X transmits' on the 240's.

It's not really a local link, it's just the default link that the switches are configured with. You should change this so that every switch uses a unique link. Unless, of course, you want to control two different loads using the same link. When I set up a new switch, I pick the option to erase the current configuration. This get's rid of any defaults for links sent or reacted to.

Doug

 

[LightenUP]

As Hucker has mentioned I am a big supporter of Gen II because I have seen it perform when Gen I failed. Even after installation, noise can become a factor, so I would seriously recommend it. The signal may not be able to handle attentuation as well but I haven't been affected by that. If you are in a very large home maybe a coupler or repeater could boost the signal for longer distances.

My question is for everyone here, if you are only looking for lighting control, why use the ELK or CQC? The timer from Web Mtn and SA can handle several automation settings. The Web Mtn timer even offers triggers like delay offs or suspend features. Very cost affective and calculates for time changes.

So why go the Elk or CQC method. I also cringe at the thought of leaving windows to do all my automation.

 

[Steve]

My question is for everyone here, if you are only looking for lighting control, why use the ELK or CQC? The timer from Web Mtn and SA can handle several automation settings. The Web Mtn timer even offers triggers like delay offs or suspend features. Very cost affective and calculates for time changes.

So why go the Elk or CQC method. I also cringe at the thought of leaving windows to do all my automation.

Well, IMHO unless you are doing scenes and stuff where switches talk to each other if all you want is timed lighting then why even invest in UPB. There are plenty of much less expensive standalone switch timers by Intermatic and others to just control some times on/off settings for lights. So, at least to me 'lighting control' means full automation with intelligence, not simply on/off timers. For example, light control based on motion detection, security system alarm or zone info or any other type of input from various types of sensors - glass/driveway/water/etc. Being able to turn on front porch lights from 50 to 100% when someone walks up or turning on all lights or blinking during alarm. Grandma can plug in a timer just to turn lights on/off at sunset, etc. So I think the real value and reason for investment is something more sophisticated than timer control.

 

[EST]

The basis behind me using UPB w/ Elk and CQC is to attenuate both systems w/ lighting. My plan will be to use the Elk for high functioning HA (security, HVAC) and CQC for low functioning (A/V, Lighting). UPB and Elk will be something like turn on lights when coming home at night after garage door opens and security system is off; alarm goes off and all the lights turn on, when the A/C turns on the ceiling fans turn on to decrease A/C use. CQC will be with one press of a button all lights turn low, movie starts; one press of the button all lights turn off at night. This is a simplified dream I have and after reading how others are using both systems I know there will be more complicated uses.

I have never had a problem w/ my HA server but the time will come and I don't want it to occur when something important is suppose to kick off.

Since I have yet to get into UPB I don't know what all automation they can offer stand alone. Everything I have read has used other systems (Elk/CQC/Others) to accentuate UPB. If I can have UPB do some automation alone w/o Elk/CQC, then I will use that. My line of thinking...less is better. The less something has to interact with other systems the less chance of it not working.

Eric

 

[LightenUP]

The timer from Web Mtn has the ability to activate a link (scene) and can also monitor for events to happen if you embrace the CM-01 input output device. This unit can look for contact closures to open or close then can send out a command to receivers assigned to do something. So wireless motion detectors, driveway probes, Alarm systems, telephone interface, window and door sensors, and I'm sure several other technologies have receivers with contact closures built in, then wire that to the CM-01. The timer comes in play when wanting to create a window of operation or to have delay triggers to turn off what ever just came on after a pre-set time. Getting a timer with this much potential for less than $150.00 is hard to beat. HAI has thermastats to work with UPB and I think someone has UPB water valves. As far as A/V I'm not sure how to integrate that with UPB but I'd bet there's a way. Web Mtn may have that answer.

To Steve's comment about just on & off, this is more than that. The one timer can control as many loads as needed (250) with one command. It can also react to other actions like the pantry light can turn off automaticly after being turned on for a pre-determined time, the bathroom fan the same way. Motion can turn up lighting if they are dimmed then go back down after a certain amount of time. Vaccation times can be stored independantly and suspend features for if and when they don't want something to happen, then they can be re-enabled via a switch.

Bottom line is for the cost,,,,can't be beat.

 

[Steve]

First I want to be clear that the UPB timer modules do work well and certainly have their place. My point is mainly that Eric has expressed wants that are in the vast majority and those wants require something more sophisticated than the timer controller or even I/O module. And some of the things mentioned like "Motion can turn up lighting if they are dimmed then go back down after a certain amount of time." is not possible without a PIR and controller, the timer module alone can't react to motion. Also, many of the late model switches have a built in off timer as it is so things mentioned like turning off closet light or bathroom fan after certain amount of time can be handled directly with the switches without needing to add the timer module. Like I said, its a good device and has its place but I just think most people need or want alot more control.

And Eric, wrt to your comment about high and low functioning - I agree and alot of people look at it that way, but if you take high functioning to mean like mission critical (it has to work) then I think most people would lean toward putting lighting into that category. Sure, unless the switches downright fail, its usually not a crisis if a light does not respond to automation but you sure get used to it and will cuss alot when it doesn't work 99.9% of the time. I always look at doing everything that is possible with the Elk and then use the software to supplement it with things Elk doesn't to at all or doesn't do well - like TTS, scripting, TS interfaces, etc.

 

[LightenUP]

Steve, you may be talking about the feature set with the Simply Automated Timer. I am using the timer from Web Mtn and it definately can do what I have mentioned, if you use wireless devices that comunicate back to a receiver with contact closures. The I/O ties in there and events can happen. I do acknowledge the switches having their own shut off but it is a bit limiting in its time offerings. You might check it out, in my experience it's very solid. I wanted to provide an option that is easier, cheaper, and dependable. I am not sure where the 99.9% failure comes from, UPB is much more reliable than that but I do concur that the motion detectors I mentioned are battery operated. Hardwired everything is better, just not always possible.