Help - newbie needs help with suggestions for home surveillance system

[Xio]

Hi all,
 
I am hoping you can point me in the right direction for a simple surveillance system.
 
My thought is to install 2 camera’s on a DVR system, may expand to 4 camera’s later.  I would like to be able to view the camera’s remotely from a computer/ipad/mobile device.  I would like good camera’s so I can capture a mug shot.  (neighbors kid is a wannabe gangbanger)
 
I have looked at packages at Costco, Tigerdirect…etc.  but my perception is most of these packages have cheap cameras.
 
Here come my questions:
My needs are pretty simple, is there a package (DVR + Cameras) anyone would recommend?  Or should I buy a DVR and separate Cameras?

DVR recommendations?
Would like the ability to view from a mobile device
Store up to 30 days
Would only need max capacity of 4 cameras
Depending upon the camera’s resolution, I believe 1 terabyte would be best
 
Camera recommendations?
Would like quality camera’s with a motion sensor
Wireless would much easier to install, but will they have quality video?  Understand there are often issues with motion sensors with wireless?
Analog – seems dated?
IP?  can cat5e be used? 
 
I have a budget of ~ $750 - $1k, but I will spend more for quality cameras.  I will be installing this myself, and I do not want a monitored system.
 
Any suggestions for a complete package or should I piece a DVR with quality cameras?
 
Any suggestions would be very helpful.
 
thanks,
Kevin

 

[pete_c]

Welcome to the forum Kevin!
 
I cannot really recommend a specfic brand of DVR or even camera these days.  I have over the years DIY'd my CCTV system software and cameras.
 
Today I am utilizing HD IP cameras with and without the ability of night vision.  There are many threads here on the forum relating to both off the shelf DVR products and DVR software.  Cameras have evolved from the simple analog limited by an SD pixel resolution to now HD higher resolution cameras.
 
Just a few years ago one HD resolution camera was priced at your current budget of ~$750-1k.  You can today purchase a complete CCTV system with IP cameras for less than $1000.00.
 
I play lately with both 1080 and 720 resolution cameras and various lens combinations and different housings.
 
I am writing about my experimenting on my blog here on the forum.
 
One thing to consider is what you will need relating to processing power for multiple streams of HD CCTV cameras.  The migration from SD to HD does increase the need for more processing power, memory and storage space should you go in this direction.
 
Personally I have been piecing individual CCTV cameras now from the time I started to play in this home.  Initially though I did install a "few" like model and mfg of cameras; specfically Optex; which today continue to function fine (over 10 years now).  The DIY pieces today have gone to purchasing individual camera boards, IP boards and housings.  The miniaturization of this stuff is amazing.  Attached is a picture from a DIY HD camera which was a DIY combining the individual pieces that make up the HD IP camera.  There are features not utilized at this time that are included both in hardware and software.  (SIP, sound type stuff).  The current CCTV software provides me with recorded event motion 24/7, mobile views, integration with my legacy serial touchscreens and current IP touchscreens, single snapshots, entire day's videos and integration with my home automation system.  IE: a package delivery is an event recorded simulaneously by three cams with three different views.  Note that the "event" process is triggered by numerous hardwired outdoor devices and with a bit of integration from the motion algorithms generated by the CCTV software.  Yup and moving to HD will provide some granular facial stuff and even a vehicle in the driveway license plate recognition.
 
All of the CCTV cameras are wired these days.  Over the years have played with propietary wireless and 801.XX wireless.  While there have been much improvements in said realm of wirelessly connected cameras; newer HD cams do require a higher continuous bandwidth (throughput).
 
The attached picture is from a "test" HD IP 1080 camera.  The camera board and IP board is bit over 2" in width.  The lens and CMOS are medium quality and priced around $100.  The housing was an extricate from a outdoor analog medium priced dome camera which I had sitting around. 

 

[Xio]

Hi Pete,
 
Thanks for all the information.  I appreciate it.
 
Kevin

 

[Del91574]

For most simple applications, Speco WM's are a nice unit and you can't go wrong....takes the issues out of where to locate the unit, not to mention make it somewhat more secure.
 
If you're going NVR, there's other items, even the "plug and play" units that the pro grade manufacturers have started dumping onto the market.

 

[newalarm]

NVRs are for digital cameras (IP) and DVRs are for analogue. Is that right? I am interested as well in cameras. I wired a few locations in our house with Cat 6. I was told that i could use either analogue or digital cameras.
 
The motion sensor aspect is usually in the software, not the camera right?
 
Thanks.

 

[drvnbysound]

NVRs are for digital cameras (IP) and DVRs are for analogue. Is that right?

 
Generally, yes, but there are hybrid devices as well.
 

I am interested as well in cameras. I wired a few locations in our house with Cat 6. I was told that i could use either analogue or digital cameras.

Yeah, it is possible to use an analog camera via Category cable (i.e. baluns). There are also analog cameras which utilize unique cabling which uses RJ-45 connectors, but aren't standard IP cameras; systems such as this for example: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA2EH0SR2150
 

The motion sensor aspect is usually in the software, not the camera right?

It depends. Generally, with DVRs that's correct. However, there are many IP cameras which provide motion detection as part of the camera functionality.

 

[newalarm]

Is there any good sources of info for how to select a lens? We are looking to install cameras, but some would be outside and would need to be high resolution to get up to 50-60 feet away. Another would be on front porch so distance would be less 28' or so, but could look past that to street beyond; this could be lower res i guess. Do most NVRs/DVRs allow for mixture or high/lower res cameras?
 
1. do cameras autofocus based on what is going on, and adjust to the light levels accordingly? (ie, of something moves in the street beyond porch, it will focus on that and adjust light levels, kind of like point and shoot camera?)
 
2. How do you calculate camera angles. I know it is best to select camera based on exact location, conditions, etc... Is it just a matter of doing plan, and figuring out what angle is required? Also, how do you convert an angle on a plan, to a camera lens focal length?
 
Thanks.

 

[drvnbysound]

Is there any good sources of info for how to select a lens? We are looking to install cameras, but some would be outside and would need to be high resolution to get up to 50-60 feet away. Another would be on front porch so distance would be less 28' or so, but could look past that to street beyond; this could be lower res i guess.

I've never seen a great tool regarding lens selection for any given camera. My suggestion would be to purchase variable focal length lenses for fixed cameras, or not really worry about it with PTZ cameras. That said, you can check the CCTV camera database here that shows various cameras and their views.
 

Do most NVRs/DVRs allow for mixture or high/lower res cameras?

Yes. I'm actually not sure of any that don't. That said, analog cameras are generally measured in TVL (or Television lines) while IP cameras are measured via resolution. The math isn't exactly perfect, but you can assume that an analog camera with 480TVL is pretty close to what you would expect from a 480p camera. There is plenty of information on the internet regarding the two and how they compare.
 

1. do cameras autofocus based on what is going on, and adjust to the light levels accordingly? (ie, of something moves in the street beyond porch, it will focus on that and adjust light levels, kind of like point and shoot camera?)

Not really. Fixed cameras are going to be focused to a given focal length. If you are using a fixed lens it may be pre-set. Variable focal length lenses also have a focus adjustment which would need to be adjusted and set after you determine your focal length. I suggest setting this at night or late evening when possible; you can generally determine if the camera is in good focus better at night or in low light conditions. If you are getting a sharp image then, it's going to be sharp during the day as well. That said, a day time image can look good with a lot of light, but be slightly blurred when you view the night time image.
 
PTZ cameras will auto focus as you move them.
 

2. How do you calculate camera angles. I know it is best to select camera based on exact location, conditions, etc... Is it just a matter of doing plan, and figuring out what angle is required? Also, how do you convert an angle on a plan, to a camera lens focal length?
Thanks.

 
I've never needed to consider the exact camera angle. I generally know what I want a particular camera to be able to see and select the best placement for that camera based on the view I want it to have. Most all fixed cameras have plenty of room for adjustment (may of them can actually pan/tilt/zoom when mounting... you just can't control this via software after the fact). Most all cameras do provide specifications which detail how much adjustment they have in each direction.

 

[pete_c]

Here is a comparison view of an analog color 480SD 3.6mm lens Optex camera view versus a 480SD 4.0mm IP HD Grandstream view going to a kind of hybrid DVR/NVR; ZM which has an 8 port/8chip analog CCTV capture card and direct connects via RTSP IP to the same box.
 
Putting a 720 or 1080 HD IP camera by the front door at 25 feet will provide grandular details of the visitor; much more than say the current analog camera.  Others have posted using a dome with a wide angle lens right above the door facing down.  That would also work with an HD or SD camera.
 
 

 

[pete_c]

Here is a night view using the same IP HD camera.  The LED illumination is coming from another two cameras.  One mounted some 3 feet up from the currently tested camera and other is in the berm.
 
 

 

[newalarm]

I was told to stay away from PTZ camera due to the cost vs quality (you need to spend a good amount to get anything quality). Plus, I don't see the necessity really. I don't have time to play with the PTZ camera and it would probably stay in one setting 99% of the time anyway (wide angle). I guess the only advantage i can see is it makes it super easy to modify your camera angle and view. But if you have a high res camera, you can digitally zoom anyway.
 
There really is a lot to take in. any good references for learning?

 

[Del91574]

You can get a lower end PTZ that'll suit the majority of what you could need for $1k, and if it lasts a year or two, so be it, it's not that much more than an equivalent of 2 good quality cams. Set the thing to tour, and if you have an inteligent enough head end, you can have it move and PTZ on alarm condition. The only item that is going to come to play then is the cabling to provide enough power for the PTZ and heater/blower.
 
If you're going fixed cameras but varifocal, a minimum for "near" work is usually 2.8-10mm lens and "far" or "detail" is going to be a 2.8-20 or 5-50mm lens in my experience. It also has to factor with the imaging chip size also.
 
NVR's and DVR's do allow a mix of resolution, but keep in mind, the lower the resolution camera, the more "noise" that is introduced into the video/stream, which has an added effect of taking up bandwidth and storage space. The higher res image, in actuality, takes up less space. Also it affects the compression and codec.

 

[drvnbysound]

If I were going PTZ, personally I would end up with Axis or Pelco cameras and I have my own reasons why. That being said, you can get an outdoor-rated Axis PTZ camera for around $1,300
 
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/851488-REG/Axis_Communications_0411_001_P5512_E_OUTDOOR_DAY_NIGHT.html
 
Personally, I didn't want to spend that kind of money A) for a camera that I'm not going to move often, and B) for a home that I don't plan to be in for a lot longer.
 
I agree with what DEL has said above regarding lens selection. I live in a pretty standard subdivision; from the front of my home to the road is probably around 50-60ft. I have a camera with a 2.8-12mm lens. It is set to 2.8mm so that it can cover the majority of my front yard on it's own. The missing coverage is the opposite side of my yard and driveway which begin to be blocked when car(s) are on the same side of the driveway as the camera. I plan to add another camera on the other side of the driveway to alleviate this.
 
I don't know that I completely agree with what was said about storage space though. I can't imagine that an SD camera would add enough 'noise' to equate storage space to a high-res camera. I'd have to see some data to accept that, but I'm definitely not saying it's wrong.
 
In any case, you can use the Axis Design Tool to estimate bandwidth and storage space:
http://www.axis.com/products/video/design_tool/index.htm
 
Realize that you don't have to choose models that are specifically based on their products. You can use the tool with the idea that you choose the same resolution and other settings that you would use from another camera. The numbers may not be exact, but they will be close.

 

[Del91574]

That $ for the Axis unit is missing a lot of the required hardware that is going to be needed to get it installed...you're only getting the dome/housing and the camera, no gooseneck, pendant or anything else, so add about $200 for the required, but not included hardware. Axis is pretty good stuff, but not without faults, we're a platinum vendor for them and have 2K installed at one of our sites. Pelco's QC has seemed to slip since the Schneider takeover in our experience.

Part of the benefit of a PTZ, assuming that it's not going to be constantly monitored, would be to set up a tour and presets, when the head end has enough intelligence, you can get the PTZ to really be a benefit, but that's going to be dependent on the head end.
 
I'd love to give you a link to the data regarding bandwidth and codecs, but the ones I have handy ATM are all proprietary confidential on our VPN, but you can save space in multiple ways, such as the codec chosen and even so much as running a color camera in B/W for certain circumstances, but factually, the resolution of the image from the camera, combined with the codec and FPS/image size are going to affect the storage. The more noise (assuming analog video) in the image/signal, it's going to transpose to storage space, even if it's unusable and trivial, but as retention times add up, so does it.
 
Bandwidth is also going to be affected if you multicast or not, not to mention if you are streaming a large image, no matter what the image size/resolution is being stored.
 
Unfortunately, I just had to go through an entire site of 1K cameras to change all the settings because the specified drives were not getting the retention that was promised.
 
To ballpark a FOV for visualization, figure a 2.8-4mm lens is approximately a 60 degree FOV. Wide, but no detail. The more you narrow down, the greater the detail/distance. Also, what everyone seems to forget when siting the cameras is that higher isn't necessarily better, and a lot of times, that 10' or so you add on make a difference in the image, not to mention, more difficult to service/maintain.

 

[Del91574]

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