Help with system to build on

[dougri]

I'm about to purchase an M1G system for security (initially) and HA (over the next 2 yrs). Home is prewired for alarm (windows, doors, motion, fire, 2 or 3 panels). As a start, I'd like to get a basic alarm working that can be checked and remotely armed via iphone (preferably programmed as well, instead of through the keypad). Here is a preliminary list of things I think I need to get started with the basic alarm functionality:

Elk M1GSYS4S: $679
ELK 950 :$30x2: $60 (do I need two of these? one for phone, one for ethernet?)
Battery Shelf: $15
M1XEP: $220
SP12F: $7
Siren TBD: ~$15 (indoor)
Larger Box: ~$100
Motion Detectors (2): ~$20
eKeypadPro: $99

I'm sure I am missing a few critical things, as this list looks too short. PLEASE enlighten me

A number of things I am unsure about are:
1) The siren... No idea what I should get here, where it should be mounted (exterior under eave vs in garage), if the speaker/siren should be an exterior or interior if enclosed in a metal box).
2) How big of an enclosure I need, and whether or not I want to put everything in one box or add a second to supplement my current enclosure that houses the cable modem, router, switch, tel distribution, PoE injector.
3) Second panel/arming station... the kit comes with a panel, but would I need two, or just a speaker on both floors to annunciate zones triggered?
4) eKeypad: Can I do all the setup through eKeypad? If I know I want IP video eventually, should I buy the PRO version, or is there an upgrade path?
5) Suitability for future wish-list (see below): IR, UPB, cell, video

I have not really dug into expansion, but would like to be able to do the following eventually:
a) video surveillance accessible via iphone... other than eKeypad, IP camera and M1XEP, what is needed for this? I have a NAS that I could dedicate TB for video, but what is needed to record it, and can the M1G be used to trigger recording off motion detectors?
b ) Lights, Thermostat (maybe irrigation) control
c) control of IR devices would be nice as well (have dual ethernet to every place where IR controlled devices reside if that helps).
d) cellular backup to central monitoring... this is future rather than immediate since all power/tel/cable are underground.

I'm leaning towards UPB for automation, as my SO is rather averse to adding more RF to our home, so the M1PCSPIM is on my near-term purchase list to get started with HA.
Any advice on this route would be appreciated as well (i.e. what additional hardware other than the obvious controller/switches/thermostats are needed with UPB on the M1G).

Thanks for any help... just trying to make sure I'm going down the right path.

 

[apostolakisl]

eKeypad pro is a nice thing for controlling your elk system, but it is not what you are going to program it with. You will need to download elk rp2 from Elk (you have to email them your unit serial number to get a logon, it's free). Run it on your pc and connect via your ethernet (xep) connection. From here you will configure your system as well as write programs (rules) for HA as well as some security stuff if you have unique needs.

Irrigation control is frequently done by purchasing Elk relay boards and running the zones directly off of them. That is what I did. There are other ways to do it but I am not familiar with the details.

For your inddor "siren" you will use a speaker. Your outdoor siren will be a real siren. I don't really think it makes a whole lot of difference what you use as long as it is within elk specs. I mounted mine in the garage attic and have it directed through the venting holes. It is plenty loud that way and is completely hidden and protected from weather. Depending on the size of your house, you may want more than one speaker inside. Chimes happen at the keypads, but voice alerts only come out of speakers. Elk has a wiring diagram for converting the output to line level for outputting into an intercom or other audio distribution system.

I don't have a surge suppressor on my ethernet. If your ethernet is local to your indoor house, I think it is low risk, but you could get induced current from lightening nearby. Who knows?

Controlling IR devices is not really a strong suit for Elk. I use my ISY connected to a Global Cache unit. The ISY is linked to the Elk.

Elk controls UPB, Insteon, X10, and others just fine. But, you will probably want a dedicated lighting controller and let the Elk play along rather than be the top boss.

I have an HAI c3 unit for cellular connection. This is not a backup, this is the one and only connection and it works great. There was a post on this forum a few weeks ago featuring another brand of cellular adapter that looked good. Don't remember more than that. I am very happy with only having the cellular com and don't even have a land line at home.

Can't say how big a box you might want. I didn't use a box at all, I have a dedicated closet. My setup would need a box about 3 by 4 feet. I didn't see the point and basically treat the closet as the "box"

 

[AlexCuster]

One thing your going to want is the data bus hub (ELK-M1DBH). You use CAT5 to connect devices (serial expanders, ethernet expander, keypads, remote sensors, etc.) to your ELK through the data bus hub. It allows for a clean install and easy expansion.

Most people can get away with a 28' in. can but if you are looking to put all of that other equipment in there you may want to consider a 42'.

 

[Del91574]

28" can is plenty, buy SWG's instead of going the "plate" route. You can put an exceptionally large M1 install in them, including cabling.

Figure a M1G, an aux 212S and 2 7AH batteries/shelves, with an XEP and about 8 cards across easily.

 

[dougri]

28" can is plenty, buy SWG's instead of going the "plate" route. You can put an exceptionally large M1 install in them, including cabling.

Figure a M1G, an aux 212S and 2 7AH batteries/shelves, with an XEP and about 8 cards across easily.

Sounds like I've got a lot to learn... What are 'aux 212S', SWG and 'cards'???

 

[apostolakisl]

Sounds like I've got a lot to learn... What are 'aux 212S', SWG and 'cards'???

212s is an auxilary power supply if you have exceeded the amp rating of the elk main board or if you are mounting a zone expander or other board at a remote location and want to power it locally.
SWG refers to a device that lets you mount items on edge instead of flat against the can
Cards refers to any of the numerous add-ons for the elk, like relay boards, zone expanders, 212s, xep, etc.

Using the swg's you can jam pack a lot of stuff in the box. The downside is that you don't get access to your boards without sliding them out and your wires need to be left loose enough to slide stuff out.

 

[dougri]

got it... thanks! sound like it will start to look like the inside of my computer... cable management and all

 

[Del91574]

212s is an auxilary power supply if you have exceeded the amp rating of the elk main board or if you are mounting a zone expander or other board at a remote location and want to power it locally.
SWG refers to a device that lets you mount items on edge instead of flat against the can
Cards refers to any of the numerous add-ons for the elk, like relay boards, zone expanders, 212s, xep, etc.

Using the swg's you can jam pack a lot of stuff in the box. The downside is that you don't get access to your boards without sliding them out and your wires need to be left loose enough to slide stuff out.

SWG's and the elevator terminals work quite well, since once the address is set via dips, there's really not too many reasons to pull the card, just unplug the terminal block, IMHO, far easier. The can has all the predrilled holes for all the major boards to fit easily without redrilling.

You can put a pretty good sized system in a 28" can with SWG's and the appropriate supplies/shelves, and I've found that leaving 1 space blank on the side where my main trunks run to work the best. I do cable management with self-tappers and ty-raps with screw mounts, occasionally use the mounts for the ty-raps, but I think Panduit or finger duct is overkill.

 

[tmbrown97]

The Elk will do lighting, irrigation, thermostats and security just fine; for IR control and Cameras you'll want to look at a 3rd party control software (Homeseer, CQC, Elve, Premise). eKeypad does have camera viewing - it's separate from the elk, just in the same interface for convenience.

My first house I did the 28" can - you can fit a lot in there if you don't mind it getting tight; in this house I did a 50" and it's severe overkill (which I'm fine with). The 14" can that came with the base package went into my garage to hold input and output expanders (for irrigation, garage door control, etc).

I must disagree with Lou on one thing - for the outdoor I'd use a speaker as well. It's semantics, but when you use a siren you have to be more mindful of voltage drop - and when the M1 is alarming it's driving voltage instead of audio. When it drives the audio, your exterior siren will be in perfect sync with your interior siren (yeah, minor - but it just gets more attention when the siren is blaring consistently and loudly). And last - with a siren, the supervisory voltage will cause it to hum noticeably unless you add a resistor across the siren terminals. A speaker fixes all that.

Any siren/speaker outdoors can be tampered with - crooks will use spray-foam inside it to disable it if they plan that far ahead. I personally like them in the attic pointing out the eave vents - you can't see them but they're just as loud.

Last - I'm worried about what motion sensors you've found for $20 - do you have pets? If so look at good pet-immune ones; and personally I'd never install a motion that wasn't dual-technology (PIR and Microwave - both must be triggered to activate eliminating false alarms) or even quad-tech (doubles both sensors). Don't skimp on motion sensors - they're the biggest cause of false alarms yet serve a critical purpose.

 

[apostolakisl]

I must disagree with Lou on one thing - for the outdoor I'd use a speaker as well. It's semantics, but when you use a siren you have to be more mindful of voltage drop - and when the M1 is alarming it's driving voltage instead of audio. When it drives the audio, your exterior siren will be in perfect sync with your interior siren (yeah, minor - but it just gets more attention when the siren is blaring consistently and loudly). And last - with a siren, the supervisory voltage will cause it to hum noticeably unless you add a resistor across the siren terminals. A speaker fixes all that.

When you say you are getting a hum, I have not experienced any hum and I haven't put any resistors. You mean a hum on the speaker or a hum on the siren? All the time, or just when it is alarming? It is possible that my outdoor speaker has a hum since I have never put my ear right up to it, but I don't think so.

If my system alarms, the indoor speaker gives voice announcements of what is wrong in addition to blaring, I like that feature but am pretty sure I wouldn't want the outside speaker telling the neighbors the exact nature of my alarm.

 

[tmbrown97]

Lou - initially I was getting a constant medium-volume siren noise when using a siren... initially I had the siren in the MBR while I was hooking things up and it was pretty loud actually. Putting that resistor across made it go away. This was the thread BSR pointed me to back then: http://www.cocoontech.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14318

The outdoor speaker won't make announcements - it'll just be the siren driver; so when the internal speaker is going off, it switches between the siren driver and voice announcements - but when it's on the siren driver, that same siren driver is driving both interior and exterior speakers - so the "whelps" are in sync. I also like that you don't have to be *as* concerned with voltage draw.

 

[Del91574]

Speakers are cheaper also Only thing to be mindful of is ohm's law and the total driven impedance, however using high impedance drivers like SPF-12's wired to drop the load to 8 ohms, the volume isn't a problem. I haven't had too many complaints about outdoor volume using styles like the SP-40's.

 

[apostolakisl]

Lou - initially I was getting a constant medium-volume siren noise when using a siren... initially I had the siren in the MBR while I was hooking things up and it was pretty loud actually. Putting that resistor across made it go away. This was the thread BSR pointed me to back then: http://www.cocoontech.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14318

The outdoor speaker won't make announcements - it'll just be the siren driver; so when the internal speaker is going off, it switches between the siren driver and voice announcements - but when it's on the siren driver, that same siren driver is driving both interior and exterior speakers - so the "whelps" are in sync. I also like that you don't have to be *as* concerned with voltage draw.

Must be a siren dependent problem since I definitely don't have the problem you had.

I see, you plug a speaker into the siren output for outside, not the speaker output. The sync really isn't an issue for me since the siren and speaker are quite far apart and the one you are closest to drowns out the other.

 

[tmbrown97]

Correct - that output is switchable between voltage and audio.