Homevision vs Homeseer/Ocelot questions

[jlehnert]

I can't speak for BSR, but I expect he means that AppDig has not had a major product announcement in a long time. IMHO the Leopard II was not a major new product, just an incremental change. I'm sure others will disagree. The best person to speak about this would be Guy L. There are no major problems in their equipment to my knowledge, just that progress marches on, and AppDig seems to have stopped in one place.

One thing to remember with AppDig though, is that their bread and butter is NOT the HA market. The Ocelot and Leopard were designed for the industrial controls market, and the company gets most of it's revenue there. That market is less likely to demand the "newest and greatest" innovation the way the HA market will.

 

[Mark S.]

...you said your Stargate integrates well with your Caddx system. This would leave me to believe that the Stargate in itself is not a security system (I know nothing about the Stargate).

Correct, Stargate is really a HA controller. Although it can be configured as a basic security system, security is not SG's best use. It is really a home automation controller. You would typically use the digital, analog and relay I/O for garage doors, doorbell integration, vehicle detection, temperature sensors, water sensors, sprinkler control, etc. Caddx is a great security system that happens to be supported by (integrated into) Stargate firmware/software. I really like the fact that SG is a great HA controller and Caddx is a great security system - and they interface very well.

Now the Elk M1 Gold looks like a great security system, that happens to have a decent amount of HA capability. But it doesn't look like a full-fledged HA controller to me. For example, if I recall correctly (questionable lately), it can do 500 lines of programming. In my experience, that is not nearly enough to do serious stand-alone HA.

I know the Elk a great security system and it's HA capacity may fit the bill for most. But my feeling is - distribute your system by using best-in-class function-dedicated components that can talk to each other but can also stand alone. In my case - those are Stargate for HA, Caddx for security and RCS for HVAC.

HAI has been top dog for so long, they have become ** VERY ** arrogant....don't hold your breath waiting for them to look at any of your suggestions.

I'll tell you who I'm a little disappointed with as far as "sitting on their heels" and that is Applied Digital...AppDig has not had a major product announcement in a long time.

I hear you guys! I see the same issues with JDS Technologies (makers of Stargate). Firmware, software and hardware advances and add-ons have come to a crawl. I've been waiting about 2 years for a minor firmware fix. Still no mention of adding Z-Wave or UPB support. JDS has finally announced a touchscreen add-on - but, I'm pretty sure it will be too little, too late.

Patiently waiting for the next generation of highly integratable HA hardware...it may never come.

Thank goodness for HomeSeer and Main Lobby.

Mark

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Wayne:

Pretty much what jlehnert said. I think they should be developing new product capabilities such as ethernet capability, MR26a direct capability (or at least be able to read some serial devices), better touch screen/displays, UPB/ZWave support, etc...

The Ocelot and Leopard were designed for the industrial controls market, and the company gets most of it's revenue there

I did not know this. Must be low budget companies that do this though as most of the controls market use Modicon or Allen Bradley products.

Mark:

Interesting analysis about the Elk not being a full HA controller. Will have to look into that some more.

 

[Guy Lavoie]

Well ok, I'll weigh in here. I also recognize that ADI hasn't introduced (or even announced) anything really new since the Leopard II a couple of years ago. And its not that they don't want to, they have been meaning to introduce a HAI bobcat for quite some time now. As jlehnert mentioned, their biggest source of income is OEM manufacturing of various devices and their main activity has been controls for tanning beds (go to their main site: www.appdig.com and follow the links to their T-Max products). Dan Boone once told me that one of his main reasons for going to shows is to pick up OEM business.

Among the things that have been discussed are the already mentioned HAI bobcat, the wireless modules (to extend the Adnet bus across a wireless link), a future Color Leopard, Z-Wave support (although I think they might be holding out a bit to see if this really takes off as a standard) and possibly a two way serial bobcat. I also discussed a few things with the writer of C-Max and he wants to add ethernet connectivity to avoid needing a Com port redirector.

As I've already mentioned on the Friday chat, I'm going to the EHX show in two weeks, invited by ADI, and will be with them in person for the first time ever. This will be a great time to discuss any of their future product intentions...

I think its normal that most manufacturers of HA products seem to be taking a break and are waiting and seeing to find out where things are going. The multitude of powerline and wireless "standards" that have popped into existance in the past cople of years leads me to believe that some of them might fail to take hold. There is usually an undefinable little simething that makes one of them come out on top. It might be the ease of 3rd party integration, licensing scheme, price breakthrough, etc. that make it a winner. Past experience has shown that it is not always the technically superior product that wins out, but a special mix of market conditions, features, and sometimes just plain luck or timing.

 

[bdrichard]

I hadn't heard of the ELK-M1G (made by Big Deer, Inc?) system before. It looks pretty except for one major area ..no IR emitter. I am looking to control existing A/V equipment, and some IR controllable ceiling fans with the system. Am I correct that the Elk does not support IR? I could have missed it or something.

I have heard Omni Pro II and Stargate mentioned like they were top contenders, but no one has mentioned HomeVision in a top contender sort of light. Is this a correct assumption?

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

You are correct in the fact that the Elk M1 Gold does not have any IR support.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Guy:

I agree with all said. I really like ADI's product line and recommend it often. This is the main reason I would like to see them continue to develop the product.

 

[jlehnert]

As I've already mentioned on the Friday chat, I'm going to the EHX show in two weeks, invited by ADI, and will be with them in person for the first time ever

Are you going to be at the booth all three days the floor is open?

There is usually an undefinable little simething that makes one of them come out on top. It might be the ease of 3rd party integration, licensing scheme, price breakthrough, etc. that make it a winner. Past experience has shown that it is not always the technically superior product that wins out, but a special mix of market conditions, features, and sometimes just plain luck or timing.

Man, do you have that right!

I don't have a problem with companies staying away from the "standards" wars, but there is always other things that can be improved elsewere. The RF hookup for the adnet buss that Guy mentioned is an excellent example.

it can do 500 lines of programming. In my experience, that is not nearly enough to do serious stand-alone HA.

You can do quite a lot in 500 lines. The ELK and HAI languages are not high level computer languages. What they lack in flexibility (as compared to something like VB or Java), they make up in smaller size and stability. I've got around 600 lines (out of 750) in my OmniPro, and I've maxed out the CPU. I haven't done much Elk programming (another learning goal while down at EHX) so I can't tell you how concise it is, but I'm willing to bet that you can do an awful lot with 500 lines.

Am I correct that the Elk does not support IR?

As of the last time I checked, yes.

I have heard Omni Pro II and Stargate mentioned like they were top contenders, but no one has mentioned HomeVision in a top contender sort of light. Is this a correct assumption?

IMO yes, but there is always rooms for discussion. HAI is well known as it is the only unit that crosses the entire range of installations, DIY through multi-million dollar homes. Stargate is known for it's voice/phone capabilities. HomeVision is known for it's TV integration. Each has it's strengths, but as I've said before, you need to decide what system best fit's your needs.

 

[bfisher]

bdrichard - we need to stay in touch... sounds like we're in similar "places" with regards to our research and implementation.

I considered Stargate when I initially evaluated Automation systems, and installed Caddx with the expectation of implementing SG. After some further research, I've settled on HVPro... for many reasons. Caddx does interface directly to HVPro.

They do have a fairly active support group for it (on Yahoo) that is supported by the company, and they do participate regularly. Also, HVPro supports UPB (which is what I'm planning on using as well).

The biggest differences of HVPro over Stargate is that HVPro does not manage the phones, and does not have a wall keypad. HVPro has other features I like (such as built in IR support (instead of buying one), and TV Interface (nice WAF)). Also allows for putting it on IP network instead of serial only.

 

[Guy Lavoie]

jlehnert, I will probably be a the ADI booth most of the time, but will also be taking in the show (maybe during the slower hours it there is such a thing). I will be wearing an ADI badge... :angry:

 

[RAKY0311]

My 5cents,the support of ELK is supperb I working in the setup of my M1Gold and every time I ask for help the answer in no more of 10 min.


M1Gold 50% to go.

 

[Chakara]

Rayke,

Is the support your getting as an end user, or as a dealer? I'm curious if I shouldn't become "Chakara Alarm System" for a while.....

 

[RAKY0311]

you not have to identified to receive support,just send a e-mail and you see! Wen I start to look for a sistem for my house I send a e-mail to HAI requesting information abouth interaction of IR and they replay me ADRESS THE QUESTION TO A DEALER NOT HERE!
excuse my english!

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

RAKY0311:

Don't worry about your English, you are welcome here at Cooontech. May I ask where you are from?

Keep us informed about your progress with the Elk M1Gold as a lot of our membership is interested in this system.

Regards,

BSR

 

[RAKY0311]

I'm in the low budget,but I want to install a decent sistem,my house is 2500sqf old house,I redo the wiring sistem complete and run 4cat5 and 1coaxial to every room also I intall a leviton panel with basic phone,leviton IR sistem and leviton multiroom audio(no $ for russound so I go cheap),now I intall my M1G myself.
I'm not programer or installer and have a little(or a lot) problem with my english,so all this turn very dificult sometime.How I do this? reading in the forums and asking by e-mail to a forum members for step by step guide to do my intallation.

Ahh,I come from CUBA and live in MIAMI. thanks