How tactile are Simply Automated's UPB switches, & what events do they broadcast?

[miamicanes]

Suppose I buy one of Simply Automated's switches, and configure it with a single half-height paddle occupying the top half, and two quarter-sized paddles occupying the lower half.

Are their paddles lame and unergonomic like X10's paddle switches, where it's really just a spring-loaded pushbutton that gets toggled when you smack the upper half of the paddle? Or are the padles spring-loaded and tactile, with a clearly-defined neutral position, and nice, satisfyingly-tactile "off" and "on" positions if you press the paddle's bottom (off) or top (on)?

God forbid, if they don't give you a nice, satisfying, tactile click, do they at least HAVE discrete "on" and "off" presses (ie, pressing the top half of the paddle generates a different event than pressing the lower half of the paddle)? Or are they basically X-10's faux-paddle button switches reborn with a slightly more robust and sophisticated protocol?

Likewise, do the switches broadcast events for both keydown and keyup, and allow you (with appropriate self-written software) overload multi-key gestures that use the 4 lower buttons as modifier keys for the upper paddle?

For example, suppose I bought the SA switch that has a half-height paddle switch above a 2x2 matrix of 4 buttons. Suppose I did the following:

Press and keep holding the lower-left button (let's call it "B3")
Press and release the paddle's top half.
Press and release the paddle's top half again.
Press and keep holding the lower right button (let's call it "B4")
Release the lower left button (B3)
Release the lower right button (B4)

If I were watching the serial output of a UPB serial interface, would I see something like:

B3 down
Paddle-on down
Paddle-on up
Paddle-on down
Paddle-on up
B4 down
B3 up
B4 up

Or would I see something different, because it might only send messages when keys are pressed, or might be stupidly matrixed and not support pressing more than one button at a time?

 

[tenholde]

Suppose I buy one of Simply Automated's switches, and configure it with a single half-height paddle occupying the top half, and two quarter-sized paddles occupying the lower half.

Are their paddles lame and unergonomic like X10's paddle switches, where it's really just a spring-loaded pushbutton that gets toggled when you smack the upper half of the paddle? Or are the padles spring-loaded and tactile, with a clearly-defined neutral position, and nice, satisfyingly-tactile "off" and "on" positions if you press the paddle's bottom (off) or top (on)?
THE FEEL OF THE SWITCHES ARE MUCH BETTER THAN THE OLD X10 PADDLES, ACCEPTABLE TO ME (I HAVE ABOUT 25 INSTALLED) BUT ARE NOT PERFECT. THERE ARE SEPARATE BUTTONS FOR THE TOP AND BOTTOM OF EACH ROCKER, OR ONE FOR EACH BUTTON.

God forbid, if they don't give you a nice, satisfying, tactile click, do they at least HAVE discrete "on" and "off" presses (ie, pressing the top half of the paddle generates a different event than pressing the lower half of the paddle)? Or are they basically X-10's faux-paddle button switches reborn with a slightly more robust and sophisticated protocol? SEPARATE TRANSMISSION FOR TOP AND BOTTOM OF ROCKERS, OR FOR EACH BUTTON.

Likewise, do the switches broadcast events for both keydown and keyup, and allow you (with appropriate self-written software) overload multi-key gestures that use the 4 lower buttons as modifier keys for the upper paddle? YOU CAN GENERATE LINK TRANSMISSIONS FROM THE SWITCH FOR (1) TAP (2) DOUBLE-TAP (3) HOLD (4) RELEASE
For example, suppose I bought the SA switch that has a half-height paddle switch above a 2x2 matrix of 4 buttons. Suppose I did the following:

Press and keep holding the lower-left button (let's call it "B3"). DEFINE A LINK TO BE SENT ON HOLD FOR THAT BUTTON
Press and release the paddle's top half. DEFINE A LINK TO BE SENT ON TAP FOR THAT PADDLE
Press and release the paddle's top half again. YOU'LL GET THE TAP LINK AGAIN IF THERE IS A PAUSE BETWEEN THE PRESS/RELEASE SEQUENCE. YOU CAN DEFINE A DOUBLE-TAP LINK TO BE SENT IF THE TOP OF THE PADDLE IS PRESS/RELEASED TWICE QUICKLY
Press and keep holding the lower right button (let's call it "B4") DEFINE A LINK FOR 'HOLD' FOR THIS BUTTON
Release the lower left button (B3) DEFINE A LINK FOR 'RELEASE' FOR THIS BUTTON
Release the lower right button (B4) SAME

If I were watching the serial output of a UPB serial interface, would I see something like:

B3 down
Paddle-on down
Paddle-on up
Paddle-on down
Paddle-on up
B4 down
B3 up
B4 up

IF YOU DEFINE THE LINKS PROPERLY, YOU WILL SEE LINK TRANSMISSIONS FOR EACH

Or would I see something different, because it might only send messages when keys are pressed, or might be stupidly matrixed and not support pressing more than one button at a time?
I'VE NEVER REALLY TRIED HOLDING ONE BUTTON DOWN (SEND 'HOLD' LINK), PRESSING ANOTHER BUTTON ON THE SAME SWITCH (SEND 'TAP' LINK), AND THEN RELEASING THE FIRST BUTTON (SEND 'RELEASE' LINK). IT IS POSSIBLE THAT WHILE HOLDING DOWN THE FIRST BUTTON, THE SWITCH DOES NOT PROCESS ANOTHER BUTTON UNTIL THE FIRST IS RELEASED. IF THIS IS CRITICAL, I CAN TRY IT, BUT IT WILL TAKE A LITTLE DOING. YOU SHOULD ASK SA SUPPORT STAFF, THEY ARE VERY RESONSIVE.

Let me know if you have further questions.

tenholde

 

[miamicanes]

Well, actually, I guess double-taps and subsequent "on" taps will do the job I have in mind (toggling the state of the bathroom exhaust fan using the same switch as the light itself), so that specific problem is largely solved... but if you're in a mood to experiment, I certainly wouldn't mind finding out whether the hardware supports using "held" buttons as modifier keys for other buttons or paddle on the top half

Thinking about it some more... do you have any idea how it might respond to a "held doubletap" (press, release, press and keep holding)? Would it broadcast it as "on-tap" followed by "on-hold"?


On a related topic... I remember reading somewhere that SA's US240 (and US22-40?) normally dim, but can be programmed to be "100% on" and "100% off". In that mode, are they truly suitable for driving the kind of loads that can never, ever be properly driven with a dimmable X10 module? As in, if you have it programmed to on/off only, and turn it 'on', is it passing through the house AC without mangling and butchering it along the way, or does it act like dimming X10 modules at "100%" & basically chop up the power into square waves, causing motors to hum & burn out prematurely, and wreaking complete havoc with compact fluorescents and LED lights? This matters quite a bit, because the three specific loads they'd be driving in my bathroom are the fan, main light (CFL), and shower light (LED).

Suppose you have a light fixture wired to a US240. Can you program the switch to power up its local load at the first hint of an on-tap, on-doubletap, or on-hold WITHOUT waiting until it's sufficiently sure of what just happened to broadcast the event? And do the same for off-taps and off-doubletaps?

Example:
(light is off)

Switch sees paddle's 'on' switch close. At this point, it has no idea whether it's going to end up being a tap, doubletap, or hold.

Switch responds and instantly powers up its local load... the light fixture. Since it's not sure yet whether the tap is going to BE a single-tap, double-tap, or hold, it doesn't broadcast the event yet.

possibility #1) the hold timeout expires, so the switch decides you're holding the paddle 'on' and broadcasts an 'on-hold' event. By this point, the light has already been powered up for a few hundred milliseconds.

possibility #2) the 'on' is released before the hold timeout expires, and no additional 'on' is detected. The switch broadcasts an "on-tap" event. The light has already been powered up for a few hundred milliseconds.

possibility #3) after the first 'on' is released, there's a second 'on' detected before the tap-timeout lapses. The switch broadcasts an "on-doubletap" event. The light has already been powered up for a few hundred milliseconds.


The scenario I just described would be absolutely ideal... I could enjoy latency-free instant on/off for the bathroom light, and only the fan's behavior would be delayed slightly.



Also, what's needed to interface them with an Elk M1G? Just a UPB-RS232 interface like the UMCDB9W, and an Elk serial port expander?

As far as configuring the individual devices (switches, modules, etc)... do you have to buy proprietary software or a dedicated programmer, or can you just temporarily connect the same serial interface bought for connecting it to the M1G to a laptop instead, and run a free program downloaded from somewhere to configure the new device?

 

[tenholde]

Well, actually, I guess double-taps and subsequent "on" taps will do the job I have in mind (toggling the state of the bathroom exhaust fan using the same switch as the light itself), so that specific problem is largely solved... but if you're in a mood to experiment, I certainly wouldn't mind finding out whether the hardware supports using "held" buttons as modifier keys for other buttons or paddle on the top half

Thinking about it some more... do you have any idea how it might respond to a "held doubletap" (press, release, press and keep holding)? Would it broadcast it as "on-tap" followed by "on-hold"? THERE IS NO ON-TAP OR ON-HOLD. I BELIEVE THAT IF YOU PRESS THE BUTTON FOR A LITTLE WHILE, YOU WILL NOT GET A TAP, BUT A HOLD AND THEN A RELEASE WHEN YOU LET IT GO. IT ALL HAS TO DO WITH HOW LONG YOU HOLD THE BUTTON BEFORE YOUR RELEASE. DO IT QUICKLY, AND YOU GET A TAP. DO IT SLOWLY AND YOU GET A HOLD AND RELEASE. I DO NOT THINK YOU GET A TAP AND A HOLD/RELEASE.


On a related topic... I remember reading somewhere that SA's US240 (and US22-40?) normally dim, but can be programmed to be "100% on" and "100% off". In that mode, are they truly suitable for driving the kind of loads that can never, ever be properly driven with a dimmable X10 module? As in, if you have it programmed to on/off only, and turn it 'on', is it passing through the house AC without mangling and butchering it along the way, or does it act like dimming X10 modules at "100%" & basically chop up the power into square waves, causing motors to hum & burn out prematurely, and wreaking complete havoc with compact fluorescents and LED lights? This matters quite a bit, because the three specific loads they'd be driving in my bathroom are the fan, main light (CFL), and shower light (LED). I USE THE US240 IN ON/OFF MODE FOR INDUCTIVE LOADS WITH NO PROBLEM. FROM EVERYTHING I'VE READ, YOU SHOULD BE OKAY.

Suppose you have a light fixture wired to a US240. Can you program the switch to power up its local load at the first hint of an on-tap, on-doubletap, or on-hold WITHOUT waiting until it's sufficiently sure of what just happened to broadcast the event? And do the same for off-taps and off-doubletaps? THE SWITCH MUST WAIT A BIT TO DETERMINE IF THERE IS GOING TO BE A HOLD/RELEASE INSTEAD OF A TAP (OR A DOUBLE TAP). YOU CAN DEFINE THIS DELAY IN MILLISECONDS: 300,450,600,750

Example:
(light is off)

Switch sees paddle's 'on' switch close. At this point, it has no idea whether it's going to end up being a tap, doubletap, or hold.

Switch responds and instantly powers up its local load... the light fixture. Since it's not sure yet whether the tap is going to BE a single-tap, double-tap, or hold, it doesn't broadcast the event yet. THE LOCAL LOAD ON THE SWITCH RESPONDS TO WHAT IS TRANSMITTED, THEY ARE NOT SEPARATE THINGS.

possibility #1) the hold timeout expires, so the switch decides you're holding the paddle 'on' and broadcasts an 'on-hold' event. By this point, the light has already been powered up for a few hundred milliseconds. NOPE, THE LIGHT WON'T BE POWERED UP. IT REACTS TO THE SAME LINK COMMAND THAT IS BROADCAST

possibility #2) the 'on' is released before the hold timeout expires, and no additional 'on' is detected. The switch broadcasts an "on-tap" event. The light has already been powered up for a few hundred milliseconds. NOPE, SAME AS ABOVE

possibility #3) after the first 'on' is released, there's a second 'on' detected before the tap-timeout lapses. The switch broadcasts an "on-doubletap" event. The light has already been powered up for a few hundred milliseconds. SEE ABOVE


The scenario I just described would be absolutely ideal... I could enjoy latency-free instant on/off for the bathroom light, and only the fan's behavior would be delayed slightly. THE LOCAL LIGHT (SWITCH LOAD) MUST ALSO WAIT TO SEE IF THERE IS A DELAY. YOU MAY WANT TO DIM/BRIGHTEN THE LIGHT. YOU DEFINE THE LOAD SO THAT WHEN IT SEES HOLD ON THE TOP OF THE PADDLE, IT STARTS RAMPING UP. WHEN IT SEES RELEASE ON THE TOP PADDLE, IT STOPS RAMPING UP. REVERSE FOR THE LOWER PADDLE. THE LOCAL LOAD HAS TO WAIT THE DELAY.


SOME PEOPLE HAVE BEEN UNHAPPY WITH UPB SWITCHES BECAUSE OF THE DELAY IN RESPONDING TO THE SWITCH. IT HAS IMPROVED WITH LATER SA SWITCHES THAT ALLOW YOU TO ADJUST THE DELAY. IT NEVER HAS BEEN A PROBLEM FOR ME, OR MOST UPB USERS.

tenholde



Also, what's needed to interface them with an Elk M1G? Just a UPB-RS232 interface like the UMCDB9W, and an Elk serial port expander?

As far as configuring the individual devices (switches, modules, etc)... do you have to buy proprietary software or a dedicated programmer, or can you just temporarily connect the same serial interface bought for connecting it to the M1G to a laptop instead, and run a free program downloaded from somewhere to configure the new device?

 

[tenholde]

Why don't you post exactly what you are trying to accomplish, and let us see if we can explain how to do this with UPB.

Are you using Homeseer or some equivalent?

tenholde

 

[miamicanes]

OK, the master bathroom has three switched loads:

1. The main light

2. The exhaust fan

3. The light over the shower

Complicating things (and more or less forcing me to go with UPB, Insteon, or something similar) is the fact that the room has two doors, and I want the behavior of the fan to be "influenced" by the behavior of the main light, but not necessarily be in the exact same on/off state AS the light.

The basic rules:

1. Anytime the paddle is pressed 'on', the bathroom light will always end up being on regardless of its prior state.

2. Anytime the paddle is pressed 'off', the bathroom light will always end up being off regardless of its prior state.

3. Whenever the light turns on after having been off, the fan turns on as well.

4. Whenever the light turns off after having been on, the fan either stays off if it was already off, or begins a 20-minute countdown before turning off if it was on for more than 10 seconds. If the light was on for less than 10 seconds, both the light and fan turn off.

5. If the paddle is pressed 'on' while the light is already on, the fan is toggled.

6. If the paddle is pressed 'off' while the light is already off, the fan is toggled. If it's in countdown, the countdown ends and it turns off immediately. If it's off, it turns on and a new countdown begins.

7. Consistent with rule 5, if the light and fan are both off, and the paddle is double-tapped 'on', the light turns on, but the fan stays off.

8. Consistent with rule 6, if the light and fan are both off and the paddle is double-tapped 'off', the light and fan both turn off immediately.

9. If the paddle is pressed and held on, the shower light turns on. Consistent with rule 1, the main light comes on if it was off, and the fan comes on if the main light was off.

10. If the paddle is pressed and held 'off', the shower light turns off. Consistent with rule 2, the main light goes off if it was on, and the fan either stays off if it was off, or enters countdown if it was on.

Rationale:

1. Principle of Least Surprise. When a light switch is turned 'on' in a dark room, guests expect a light to turn on regardless of what else might happen. When a light switch is turned 'off' in an illuminated room, people expect the light to turn off. Likewise, if a guest walks into a bathroom, turns on the light, is startled by the fan noise (or thinks it's making too much noise), the first thing they're going to do is turn the switch 'off'. If the fan keeps running at that point, they're going to have a panic attack, be frustrated, and generally feel as if their expectations regarding the behavior of a switch have been violated.

2. The 'alternate' principle. Press a button once to do the usual thing. Press it twice to do something unusual. The normal use case is for both the fan and light to come on when you enter the bathroom. Thus, turning on the light without the fan is the exception to the rule, and merits the double-tap. Since the shower light burns 2.8 watts and is likely to be left on more or less forever, the press-and-hold maneuver to turn it on and off makes sense, since that's the slowest and most awkward gesture of all.

I'm halfway thinking about going a step further, and having an 'off' tap that turns off the light ALSO turn off the fan, then wait 60 seconds and turn the fan back on for 20-30 minutes. The idea is that the fan will turn off with the light as expected by guests, then turn back on after they've left the area -- achieving the goals of both non-surprise and extended running time ;-)

In addition to the big-paddle gestures, If I feel wealthy enough to burn another $200 or so on a second pair of controllers, I'll configure them with half-sized paddles, and tell guests the top one controls the fan, and the bottom one controls the shower light. In this case, both switches would turn the light/fan on if tapped 'on' (subsequent on taps ignored), and do the same for off taps.

Nirvana and bliss! The big, main paddle Does The Right Thing 99.9% of the time (100% of the time, if you're a guest and only press it on or off one time), but enables me to blindly reach over and smack the desired gesture onto the big paddle for my own convenience without having to fumble for the other two switches that I go for months at a time without bothering to use.

IMHO, it's applications like THIS that would convince people like my parents to join the home automation crowd, too. Although, for what it's worth, the main thing that triggered THIS home automation experiment was the realization that there's no way in HELL I can pull two 12# wires and 8 14# wires through the 3/4" conduit connecting one side of my bathroom (where door #1 is) with the other (where door #2 and the two walls with the lights and fan are located)... at least, not legally, since bathroom outlets HAVE to be 20A, and running more than 9 wires through a 3/4" conduit automatically derates the wires in it. For the 8 14# wires it wouldn't matter, but for the 12# pair it would make it essentially illegal. Three of the 14# pairs would be hot+traveler for the fan, main light, and shower fan; the fourth pair would have been the same hot & neutral used for the lights & fan passed through unswitched to feed any future home automation needs. The current conduit has only 5 wires... the 20A GFCI-protected hot & neutral for the power outlets, the hot & traveler for the 3-way switch by the first door, and neutral to feed the light & fan on the other side of the second 3-way switch by the other door... the fan and light share the same power and run in lockstep, and there's no shower light at all.

One tip I that others might or might not know... 99% of the homes in America share a single neutral between a pair of circuits taken from opposite taps on the pole transformer. It's ok, because the shared neutral only carries whatever load isn't neutralized by the opposite circuit. The moment you add GFCI or AFCI breakers to the equation, the whole thing goes to hell because GFCI and AFCI circuits need their own dedicated neutral wire all the way back to the breaker panel. If you try to use a neutral from a different circuit, the breaker will trip since it will see an unbalanced load. Of course, it's STILL impossible to buy white wire with a colored stripe or bands on it, so if you're pulling a new circuit, you could use a different color for each circuit and use the color of the band or line on the white wires so you could tell which hot wire it belongs to...

 

[tenholde]

OK, the master bathroom has three switched loads:

1. The main light

2. The exhaust fan

3. The light over the shower

Complicating things (and more or less forcing me to go with UPB, Insteon, or something similar) is the fact that the room has two doors, and I want the behavior of the fan to be "influenced" by the behavior of the main light, but not necessarily be in the exact same on/off state AS the light.

The basic rules:

1. Anytime the paddle is pressed 'on', the bathroom light will always end up being on regardless of its prior state.

2. Anytime the paddle is pressed 'off', the bathroom light will always end up being off regardless of its prior state.

3. Whenever the light turns on after having been off, the fan turns on as well.

4. Whenever the light turns off after having been on, the fan either stays off if it was already off, or begins a 20-minute countdown before turning off if it was on for more than 10 seconds. If the light was on for less than 10 seconds, both the light and fan turn off.

5. If the paddle is pressed 'on' while the light is already on, the fan is toggled.

6. If the paddle is pressed 'off' while the light is already off, the fan is toggled. If it's in countdown, the countdown ends and it turns off immediately. If it's off, it turns on and a new countdown begins.

7. Consistent with rule 5, if the light and fan are both off, and the paddle is double-tapped 'on', the light turns on, but the fan stays off.

8. Consistent with rule 6, if the light and fan are both off and the paddle is double-tapped 'off', the light and fan both turn off immediately.

9. If the paddle is pressed and held on, the shower light turns on. Consistent with rule 1, the main light comes on if it was off, and the fan comes on if the main light was off.

10. If the paddle is pressed and held 'off', the shower light turns off. Consistent with rule 2, the main light goes off if it was on, and the fan either stays off if it was off, or enters countdown if it was on.

Rationale:

1. Principle of Least Surprise. When a light switch is turned 'on' in a dark room, guests expect a light to turn on regardless of what else might happen. When a light switch is turned 'off' in an illuminated room, people expect the light to turn off. Likewise, if a guest walks into a bathroom, turns on the light, is startled by the fan noise (or thinks it's making too much noise), the first thing they're going to do is turn the switch 'off'. If the fan keeps running at that point, they're going to have a panic attack, be frustrated, and generally feel as if their expectations regarding the behavior of a switch have been violated.

2. The 'alternate' principle. Press a button once to do the usual thing. Press it twice to do something unusual. The normal use case is for both the fan and light to come on when you enter the bathroom. Thus, turning on the light without the fan is the exception to the rule, and merits the double-tap. Since the shower light burns 2.8 watts and is likely to be left on more or less forever, the press-and-hold maneuver to turn it on and off makes sense, since that's the slowest and most awkward gesture of all.

I'm halfway thinking about going a step further, and having an 'off' tap that turns off the light ALSO turn off the fan, then wait 60 seconds and turn the fan back on for 20-30 minutes. The idea is that the fan will turn off with the light as expected by guests, then turn back on after they've left the area -- achieving the goals of both non-surprise and extended running time ;-)

In addition to the big-paddle gestures, If I feel wealthy enough to burn another $200 or so on a second pair of controllers, I'll configure them with half-sized paddles, and tell guests the top one controls the fan, and the bottom one controls the shower light. In this case, both switches would turn the light/fan on if tapped 'on' (subsequent on taps ignored), and do the same for off taps.

Nirvana and bliss! The big, main paddle Does The Right Thing 99.9% of the time (100% of the time, if you're a guest and only press it on or off one time), but enables me to blindly reach over and smack the desired gesture onto the big paddle for my own convenience without having to fumble for the other two switches that I go for months at a time without bothering to use.

IMHO, it's applications like THIS that would convince people like my parents to join the home automation crowd, too. Although, for what it's worth, the main thing that triggered THIS home automation experiment was the realization that there's no way in HELL I can pull two 12# wires and 8 14# wires through the 3/4" conduit connecting one side of my bathroom (where door #1 is) with the other (where door #2 and the two walls with the lights and fan are located)... at least, not legally, since bathroom outlets HAVE to be 20A, and running more than 9 wires through a 3/4" conduit automatically derates the wires in it. For the 8 14# wires it wouldn't matter, but for the 12# pair it would make it essentially illegal. Three of the 14# pairs would be hot+traveler for the fan, main light, and shower fan; the fourth pair would have been the same hot & neutral used for the lights & fan passed through unswitched to feed any future home automation needs.

Do you have a HA controller like Homeseer to accomplish all of this, or do you expect UPB links to accomplish it alone?

You do realize that you will need 3 UPB switches (or 1 dual and 1 single switch) to control the loads?

tenholde

 

[miamicanes]

Do you have a HA controller like Homeseer to accomplish all of this, or do you expect UPB links to accomplish it alone?

You do realize that you will need 3 UPB switches (or 1 dual and 1 single switch) to control the loads?

tenholde

I have an Elk M1. If the M1's own rules prove to be unable to handle the task, I have a Plan B: use an Atmel AVR microcontroller (probably a Mega48 or Mega16) with two UARTs to sit between the expensive UPB-Serial link and the M1G. If it sees incoming traffic from UART #1 (connected to the UPB-Serial link) that relates to the bathroom switch, it would handle it directly. Otherwise, it would just relay it to the M1 via UART #2. And vice-versa... traffic from the M1 to the UPB interface would just be instantly relayed from UART #2 to UART #1.

As far as controllers go, I see two scenarios:

1. US240 at the hall door, US22-40 at the door leading to the bedroom. The shower light is connected to the US240, which is provisioned to not directly control its own load. The main light and exhaust fan are connected to the US22-40 by the other door, since it can control two loads.

2. Three US240s and a single-paddle slave. The bedroom door has one US240 powering the main light, and one US240 powering the fan. The hall door has a US240 powering the shower light, and the slave is connected to the US240 by the bedroom door that powers the main light. Or, if the slave can't be used that way, a fourth US240 instead. In each pair, one switch would have a single big paddle, and the other would have two half-sized paddles. Big paddle acts according to the rules above via either the M1 or my own controller, the two half-sized paddles control the fan and shower light.

 

[Steve]

This post does not add any value but I must comment for the sake of future posts. This thread just absolutely gave me a headache and I stopped reading it after the first reply. 2 reasons.

1. Tenholde: Please consider breaking up your replies so just the previous posters comment is quoted and your reply is not. At the very least change the color of your reply. Your replies just are totally lost (even in CAPS) in one giant quote.
2. As discussed in previous threads, it is not necessary and honestly annoying and a waste of space to fully quote a post (especially a long one) directly above your reply. Please use the quotes to refer to individual pieces further up the thread.

Please understand I am not picking or discriminating or anything, just hoping to point these things out so future threads are easier to read and follow. Thanks for taking it in the helpful manner in which it as intended.

 

[123]

Yup. I second the motion.

 

[tenholde]

This thread just absolutely gave me a headache and I stopped reading it after the first reply.

OK

 

[mustangcoupe]

Just a brief comment on the SAI switches, you can not press two buttons at once and have it fire off both events.