How to integrate security, automation, and zone control for Omnipro II or Elk M1 Gold

[hoehne]

I am in the process of putting together a security and basic home automation system. My first priority is security, but once I saw that most security controllers could also do automation and HVAC control, then I wanted to take advantage of these features.

I am currently looking at the HAI Omnipro II and Elk M1 Gold. Not too sure which one to get because I haven’t quite figured out the full integration. On the security side, both setups offer what I need which is about 8 security zones and 3 or 4 fire zones. I want to integrate 2 or 3 keypads for control of the security system. This part seems easy.
The real questions come on home automation and HVAC. On the automation my main goal is to setup my HVAC into 7 control zones. The Omnipro II is capable of up to 64 thermostats and I believe I could use the Omnistat2 or other thermostats that are Zwave or UPB compatible. From what I understand, the advantage to connecting the thermostat to the HA controller is the ability to have all the thermostats be controlled by the controller for various modes and possibly, but I don’t really think this is possible, control one thermostat from another. The part I am not very clear on with the zone control is how the thermostats actually integrate into my current HVAC. Currently I have a single stage HVAC system using a gas furnace that supplies my first and second floor. I would like to break this up into 7 zones and realize this requires modifying duct work and adding motorized dampers for each vent so that it can be independently controlled. What I can’t determine is how the HA controller works with the thermostats and dampers. Do I need to purchase a separate zone controller or is the HA controller all that I need? I really hope that I can install my 7 thermostats in my 7 different zones and connect all my motorized dampers to a relay board in the HA controller. When zone 3 calls for air conditioning, the HA controller would close all the other zones and open zone 3 and switch on the air conditioning. Is this how things would integrate? Is extra hardware needed other than additional relay boards and thermostats? What thermostats could be used to accomplish this for each system?
I also have a Pronto 9600 I would like to integrate into the system and I know the Omnipro II can easily integrate with the Pronto for theater control. Is there a cost to do this for the plugin? Can Elk work with the Pronto?
Also, what is needed to do the system programming for each system? I obviously will have to do some basic coding especially if the zone control scenario I described above is how things will really work. Do I need to purchase extra interface devices or software to program the Omni or Elk controllers? If so, what would I need?
With all this being said, is there any input on which controller would better fit my needs? I have the ability to get an Omnipro II for the same price as the Elk M1 Gold, but am concerned that since I am a DIY’er that I may not be able to get the support I need from HAI.
I am leaning to the Omnipro right now because of the Pronto integration and the pricing deal I can get with it. I can get the security I need with either system, but I really need help figuring out how to integrate HVAC zone control and if one system is easier to do this with than the other. Since I need so many thermostats, one system may have a great advantage if I can integrate less expensive thermostats with it.

 

[BryanE]

I also have a Pronto 9600 I would like to integrate into the system and I know the Omnipro II can easily integrate with the Pronto for theater control. Is there a cost to do this for the plugin? Can Elk work with the Pronto?

HAI provides a FREE ProntoScript module to control their security system from any of the Philips TSU remotes. Unfortunately, Elk does not offer any type of Philips Pronto integration.

Also, what is needed to do the system programming for each system? I obviously will have to do some basic coding especially if the zone control scenario I described above is how things will really work. Do I need to purchase extra interface devices or software to program the Omni or Elk controllers? If so, what would I need?

The Elk is very easy to program using their RP software that can be downloaded free of charge. I believe HAI has something similar.

With all this being said, is there any input on which controller would better fit my needs? I have the ability to get an Omnipro II for the same price as the Elk M1 Gold, but am concerned that since I am a DIY’er that I may not be able to get the support I need from HAI.

Elk has great support even if you're a DIY'er. I've heard, in the past, that HAI catered towards the dealer/installer but that may have changed.

I am leaning to the Omnipro right now because of the Pronto integration and the pricing deal I can get with it. I can get the security I need with either system, but I really need help figuring out how to integrate HVAC zone control and if one system is easier to do this with than the other. Since I need so many thermostats, one system may have a great advantage if I can integrate less expensive thermostats with it.

If Pronto integration is important the OmniPro II is the only way to go. You won't be dissapointed with either system.

 

[hoehne]

Thanks for the insight on the Pronto.

Can anyone comment on the HVAC and thermostat integration for zoning?

 

[Neurorad]

You need to become an HVAC expert, if you want to add dampers DIY. It will take a lot of time to learn.

Do a lot of research, THEN consult a pro, to help design.

The hard part is the changes to the HVAC, not the control.

One good resource is the HVAC-talk.com forum, for pros. You'll need to buy some books. Some courses at a local tech school may help.

Not many people DIY dampers, but it can be done. It's more difficult when the ducts are concealed behind drywall - do you have a basement/crawl and/or attic?

Edit - I've had this book in my Amazon cart for a while - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...ER&v=glance

and this one too

http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Refrigeration..._pr_product_top

HVAC textbooks

 

[hoehne]

I will check out the other forum you mentioned. My ducting is all exposed in my basement. It is very straightforward to add dampers and/or rework and add ducting for the various zones. This part does not concern me. Load balancing on my system is somewhat of a concern, but my graduate research and current job have given me 9 years of experience in modeling and design of air conditioning systems mostly for automotive applications. I obviously will need to do some homework and run some calculations before the first piece of sheet metal is cut, but for today, I just need to figure out if the systems I am researching will do what I think and have a plan in place.

I want to buy the correct system today, install the security system as a first priority. As time permits, I would modify my ducting, add dampers, purchase relay boards, and thermostats and start retrofitting, but step one is identifying the controller and verifying the controller does what I want it to.

Also, other good references include the four ASHRAE Handbooks which provide basic info for calculations and are a decent reference for roughing things out.

I am still trying to find out about using the Elk or the HAI in conjunction with several thermostats to actuate various zone dampers using the relay board accessories and if this is the way the controller is supposed to be utilized or if there is a better way or if a HVAC zone controller is still required.

 

[sic0048]

I am still trying to find out about using the Elk or the HAI in conjunction with several thermostats to actuate various zone dampers using the relay board accessories and if this is the way the controller is supposed to be utilized or if there is a better way or if a HVAC zone controller is still required.

I think either method will work. The advantage to using the HVAC zone controller is that is is a stand alone system. If the ELK/HAI system goes down for some reason, it won't take your HVAC system with it if you are using a zone controller. If you are simply using a bunch of different controllable thermostats and then using the ELK/HAI to control the system via rules, you are adding another link to the chain that must be up and running for everything to work.

I have RCS thermostats and they make two different zone controllers. One controller, the ZC series, uses their normal communicating thermostats, but ties them all togther. But each thermostat would communicate with the ELK/HAI individually. In this system, the theromstats are more expensive, but the zone controller is cheaper. The other system, the ZCVx series, uses dummer wall controls (actually it is the same wall unit as the other method, just without it's corresponding communication panel since this is built into the zone controller itself) and the communication to the ELK/HAI system comes from the zone controller itself. In this system, the wall controllers are cheaper, but the zone controller is more expensive.

So there are several ways to skin this cat, but personally I would look at a zone controller that would communicate with the ELK/HAI system itself (something like the ZCVx series). That way the system only requires 1 connection with the automation system, but will also run on its own should the automation system go down for some reason.

 

[fcwilt]

I would go with a stand alone zone controller that supports the home automation system you wish to use. I think it would be very hard to come up with a robust system using just the programming that ELK supports. I haven't used an HAI but I believe that the programming capabilities are similar to the ELK. Besides why reinvent the wheel.

 

[programmergeek]

I have done this with a HAI not to bad you just use the relays off the board to control the dampers, trouble is you only have 8 or so. Then use temp sensors around the house and just write logic.

 

[fcwilt]

I have done this with a HAI not to bad you just use the relays off the board to control the dampers, trouble is you only have 8 or so. Then use temp sensors around the house and just write logic.

You were able to implement all of the MRT and MOT requirements was well as handle HEAT/COOL CALL CONFLICT resolution? The programming capabilities of HAI must be very good. How many zones were you handling? How many stages of heat/cool? Did the system have fixed or variable speed blowers? What about fresh air intakes?

Thanks.

 

[signal15]

For those interested in doing this, there is some great information here:

http://diy-zoning.sourceforge.net/

Specifically, check this page to get a good idea of how much you need to take into account when starting a zoning project:

http://diy-zoning.sourceforge.net/Homeowners/faq.html

 

[hoehne]

Thank you so much for your response. Very helpful and this opens more questions that I hope you can help with.

Assuming I go with the HAI Omnipro II, what else do I need to perform the programming that you are mentioning for controlling the relays and talking with the thermostats? Is there free software or does the $50 end user software provide me the functionality that I need in order to fully program the unit or do I need to purchase the $170 software? How do I connect to the unit to program it? Do I need to purchase a serial cable or serial cable interface or can I connect to it through my lan using an ethernet cable?

Here is the list of components I have assembled thus far in order to get the security up and running. The second group is for HVAC control. Would you recommend UPB or Zwave for light switches and lighting controls? Below are Smarthome.com numbers and descriptions. The Omnipro controller I found doesn't come with the power supply or RJ-31x phone interface, so I need to pick those up separate as well as a battery.

Qty Part No. Description
1 110604 Omnipro II Controller Sale
1 8619 Leviton RJ-31X Surface Mount Jack
1 3061 24V AC 40VA Power Supply w/Auto-Resetting Fuse
2 110722 HAI Omni Console Sale
2 110723 Omni Console Flush Mount Kit Sale
1 110713 HAI Flush Spkr/Mic Module Sale
1 1103825 Omni Pro-II Upgrade Chip Sale
7 7481A 40lb Pet-Immune Hardwired Motion Sensor Sale

6 110748 HAI Omnistat2 Single Stage Conventional and Heat Pump Thermostat, White Sale
1 110708 HAI 8-Relay Module Sale
13 307107 6-Inch Diameter Normally Open Electronic HVAC Air Duct Damper with Power Supply Sale

As I mentioned in my post, security is first priority and once functional I would like to move to HVAC control. My assumption is that the programming is not computer language, but more common language and I could program simple relations to turn the HVAC blower on for 5 minutes out of every 30 minutes for instance to circulate air. I also assume that the thermostats all communicate with one another and when they tell the controller they need Heat or A/C, the control then turns the furnace on accordingly. Does this mean that the current wire going to my single thermostat will now connect to the HAI controller instead?

Thanks for any support you can provide.

I jsut wanted to pm you I answered your thread.

I have done this with a HAI not to bad you just use the relays off the board to control the dampers, trouble is you only have 8 or so. Then use temp sensors around the house and just write logic. This is way ahead of the M1.

I am a elk and HAI dealer the ELK is a bit limited especally being able to adjust thermostats and monitor temp. The HAI is a more compleat solution. The issue with HAI is you only have 8 or 16 relays off the main board which should be enought. If not you need to add expansion enclosure which is expensive. There new thermostat the omistat2 is the best I have also seen, I have 2 in my house.

If you need prices on HAI or elk stuff let me knwo I have some inventory I have to move. It's been a slow year.

 

[pete_c]

A lot of what you want to do involves measuring air flow in/out of your furnance and balancing said air flow. I learned this in an enterprise endeavor. Starving the flow on either side can have ill effects. There are high end tools (I didn't even know existed) to measure both the flow inside the ductwork and outside. It also involves measure cubic feet of ductwork out/in your furnance.

I also learned that "tin cutting" sheet metal cutting for HVAC is an art. I am curious what type of dampers you would use and how they would be used?

In my one an only enterprise HVAC endeavor it took almost as long to "tune" the system as it took to put it in. (one 20 ton, one 15 ton and one 5 ton unit). Making the system redundant/failsafe was almost as important using a mixture of failover mechanical dampers which worked depending on the flow/air pressure versus an proactive method.

 

[ysualum]

I have an OPII and my HVAC system is divided into 10 zones. I have 3 AC/furnace units divided into 4, 3, and 3 zones. I had my guy install a Honeywell zone controller to take care of the dampers. It's possible to have the OPII do it, but you'll likely need some extra output relay boards and have the OPII working at the time of install. This automation stuff was new to me, so I needed things to be working sooner than later as well. I didn't install the OPII until we had moved in. Now if I have issues, I can go to the HVAC guy to fix/replace any parts. I have Omnistat2s hooked up to the zone controllers and things work well. My HVAC guy created a relay for all of the humidifier wiring since I couldn't find a zone controller that incorporated humidifier/dehumidifier control. Omnistat2s don't send a call for fan on if the humidifier is activated, so you'll have to write some programs to turn fan on and then off again anytime the humidifier is turned on.