How to train myself on "correct" HV wiring?

First of all, shouldn't we clarify the NEC defines "high voltage" as basically over 600 volts which you're not going to have in your house :D  And again for some electricians depending on their work, 600 is only medium voltage.
 
As far as crawl space wiring, I too live in the SF Bay Area and have dealt with 3 different jurisdiction's inspectors in home renovations.  None of them ever had a problem classifying the space as "Dry. A location not normally subject to dampness or wetness. A location classified as dry may be temporarily subject to dampness or wetness, as in the case of a building under construction.", Ran romex, plastic boxes, etc.
 
Unless you live in Foster City or have a real anal inspector you should be fine.  If you run conduit, then THHN would be OK.  Talking with some Electricians through my work, they say the same thing.
 
FYI, California Electrical Code is on the 2008 NEC until December 31, then new code will be based on 2011 version.
 
For me, yes this is the greatest site for automation and all, for electrical I've had great success searching:
 
http://forums.mikeholt.com/
 
and also my personal favorite that got me from novice to haven't electrocuted myself yet,  http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/.  The forums there don't have the traffic they used to, but people still answer your questions quickly and they don't frown on the novice.  They also have good straight forward explanations on wiring diagrams, basic rules like box and conduit fill and other stuff,
 
archstenton said:
First of all, shouldn't we clarify the NEC defines "high voltage" as basically over 600 volts which you're not going to have in your house :D  And again for some electricians depending on their work, 600 is only medium voltage.
Click to expand...
In 'this' forum we make the distinction between 'low voltage' and 'high voltage' as low being network, sensors, camera coax, etc... and high voltage being typical 120/240 vac home electrical wiring.  This is done because the two are usually talked about in the same posts mainly in house wiring where one is concerned about separation, crossing, compatibility in a breakout box, etc...! ;)
 
IVB said:
  1. Really? What is a compliant method for supporting that many runs?  Its gotta be close to 50.
Click to expand...
Donning asbestos fire rated suit
 
Must be listed for the purpose. Those, pardon me if I'm wrong, look just like the angle brackets sold at the blue or orange sort of store for the purpose of hanging/storage of ladders, bikes, etc.
 
Plumbing J hooks, etc. are not listed for the purpose of hanging or supporting wiring. In the case of using 1 or 2 hole straps, I have had some tougher AHJ's not allow that....they're for holding a raceway, not supporting cabling. They did allow them, however, to be used for a horizontal application to collate the wiring down to the termination location. The same area said the same thing regarding ty-raps...not for supporting cabling, only bundling and harnessing purposes. Wiring must be supported using approved methods.
 
@ Wuench, Yes, code is intended to be a minimum specification for what an electrical installation should comply with. While it may not be exactly what you may or may not agree with, if a AHJ or building official is going to cite something they don't like, then most EC's are going to want them to provide their supporting information. As I said, there can be some spirited discussion and interpretation by an EC and AHJ when it comes to what is or is not permissible, however in the case of a junction, yes a box is needed, but a tap, mid run, does not. Make sense, no, but when you look at the wiring methods and code articles cited as well as the methods K+T was installed in, it's no different than the original workmanship. That said, the largest issue with K+T is the modifications that have taken place to it over the years and insulation affecting the heat dissipation of the conductors, not taps coming loose. If heating of conductors was a huge issue, then soldering wouldn't be an acceptable method then, let alone what is still acceptable within code.
 
The wire nut is a compression connector that also has a physical aspect. For that matter, look at some old Marette's they're the same as lugs with setscrews. If installed properly and sized for the conductors, they don't come loose...if they did, they wouldn't be an approved method and we'd still be using t crimp barrels or solder, followed by rubber tape and then friction tape for everything. If you have wire nuts that come loose, then the parties involved should really inspect their installation methods and wire nut size choice....the chart with the min and max # of conductors and sizes are there for a reason.
 
archstenton said:
First of all, shouldn't we clarify the NEC defines "high voltage" as basically over 600 volts which you're not going to have in your house :D  And again for some electricians depending on their work, 600 is only medium voltage.
 
As far as crawl space wiring, I too live in the SF Bay Area and have dealt with 3 different jurisdiction's inspectors in home renovations.  None of them ever had a problem classifying the space as "Dry. A location not normally subject to dampness or wetness. A location classified as dry may be temporarily subject to dampness or wetness, as in the case of a building under construction.", Ran romex, plastic boxes, etc.
 
Unless you live in Foster City or have a real anal inspector you should be fine.  If you run conduit, then THHN would be OK.  Talking with some Electricians through my work, they say the same thing.
 
FYI, California Electrical Code is on the 2008 NEC until December 31, then new code will be based on 2011 version.
Click to expand...
This is true, however prior to any pictures being posted, the OP did mention under house and crawlspace. I can't comment as far as if it should be considered dry or wet as far as the code goes, I'm not there, but by stating crawlspace, under house, conduit, that would lead me to believe wet location, otherwise conduit really would not be a choice for a wiring method....mainly due to labor and material cost compared to a NM, AC or BX wiring method. IMHO.
 
They are just regular hanging stuff.
 
Sorry, not following, in order to be compliant with code, to run 50 cables, should I have put that in a ton of different 2" pipes? Or is there something physically bigger that houses them?
 
DELInstallations said:
Donning asbestos fire rated suit
 
Must be listed for the purpose. Those, pardon me if I'm wrong, look just like the angle brackets sold at the blue or orange sort of store for the purpose of hanging/storage of ladders, bikes, etc.
 
Plumbing J hooks, etc. are not listed for the purpose of hanging or supporting wiring. In the case of using 1 or 2 hole straps, I have had some tougher AHJ's not allow that....they're for holding a raceway, not supporting cabling. They did allow them, however, to be used for a horizontal application to collate the wiring down to the termination location. The same area said the same thing regarding ty-raps...not for supporting cabling, only bundling and harnessing purposes. Wiring must be supported using approved methods.
Click to expand...
 
The links that were posted appear to be compliant products (cant view on the network I'm working on right now) but cable tray and racks would also be another method, albeit more expensive when compared to a loop or J hook.
 
Pipe could be used, but that's a real PITA to work with, especially in a house. Bringing a bundle down a wall or into a panel is one thing, but for a run itself...not my first choice of a raceway method.

There's also plenty of bang in hardware that would be compliant that doesn't have the issues that bridle rings or drive rings would have (doesn't distribute cable weight from cables above, tends to cleave the lower cables in the bundle)
 
While a lot of DIY really don't seem to care, the same holds true for the velcro straps or ty-raps....they're not approved for cable support, nor intended for such. That's why they have all the other items. As I said, the AHJ's I've dealt with in one section of the state are on their game and let nothing fly that isn't 100% backed up by a code article. Their case for the unapproved cable hanging hardware and methods is for fire purposes....the support method burns through or melts, dropping the cabling down on the fire personnel, rather than a supporting system.
 
Again, I'm not trying to start a flame war or battle, just what I view and understand as a code issue or not and where it may or may not be determined to comply or not. I'm not a hobbyist, so I have to meet a higher standard on a daily basis and be able to defend or back up what I do, say or install. I'm simply exposed to it far more frequently than others.
IVB said:
They are just regular hanging stuff.
 
Sorry, not following, in order to be compliant with code, to run 50 cables, should I have put that in a ton of different 2" pipes? Or is there something physically bigger that houses them?
Click to expand...
 
Well those bicycle/ladder hangers are not going to melt. The only issue they might present is the fact that they have such a narrow profile compared to the wiring j-hooks. So all the force from the bundle is going to be compressing the cables at the bottom over a very small area, leaving the possibility of damage to the conductors or insulation.
 
I didn't say they are going to melt, I provided some additional information regarding other methods that others elsewhere seem to practice.

The inherent problem I have with hardware store hangers are they're not going to distribute the load on the cables installed.
Same goes with "approved" hardware like drive rings or bridle rings...over time the cables at the bottom get cleaved by the bearing point of the hardware.
 
As I said before, it's a pet peeve...it screams improper and DIY. People will spend days or months looking at the newest gizmo or tv connected to this stuff, but won't look at something as basic as the proper way to support a cable in a house. Maybe it comes from having to tell the HO's of many of the houses pre-recession that were wired by Jim-Bob and Cleetus (*not intended as offensive) that their structured wiring and centralized media center, leviton panel, what have you, has issues and needs to be rewired or in best case, have $X worth of rework and fixes applied so it'll actually function.
 
As I said, it's a pet peeve of mine. If you're going to go through the effort of installing 50+runs or even 10....why not do it right the first time? Wiring and systems should be looked at as an investment in your house.
 
Here I used wood and plumbers PVC hangers in the rafters in the basement for LV wiring and similiar in the attic.
 
Should I replace the PVC pipe hangers?
 
I have noticed that the monster RG-6 quad shielded cable is falling apart in the attic.  Originally purchased 1000 feet of the twin RG-6 monster cable. 
 
The rest of the cat5e cabling, speaker cabling looks fine to me these days after some 10 years.
 
By Cable Tray, do you mean something like this: http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/CABLOFIL-Wire-Mesh-Cable-Tray-1ATN3
 
I agree with your latter statement, I thought I was doing things right but I see your point about weight.  Seems like it would be straightforward to buy a few of these and simply mount under the existing wire, might need an assistant so I can do this in-situ without removing the existing wiring. (Just mount & remove j-hook)
 
Dunno if this is the "right" one, I'd need perhaps 50-60 feet, that particular one I think is $250 for 24 feet so 2-3 of them would cover it.
 
DELInstallations said:
The links that were posted appear to be compliant products (cant view on the network I'm working on right now) but cable tray and racks would also be another method, albeit more expensive when compared to a loop or J hook.
...
If you're going to go through the effort of installing 50+runs or even 10....why not do it right the first time? Wiring and systems should be looked at as an investment in your house.
Click to expand...
 
@ Pete
 
If the bundle is of any size, then most likely you have some deformation in the conductors at the bottom. How bad can't really be judged with the eyes and a pair of cheaters, you'd need either a graphical TDR or Fluke to see what's going on and if the cable is still within spec. Replacement would be your own perogative.

Regarding the Monster stuff, personally I'd talk to them and send a sample...possibly raise cain, but that's me....the other side of me says that it's not going to break the bank eating a reel or two of coax besides the labor to pull it in. Cable should not fail like that....the only ones I've seen have jacket issues are usually plenum rated and temperature is the root cause.
 
@ IVT
 
Not necessarily faulting, but you didn't know and didn't investigate....most likely it's a "I have to get X amount of cabling installed and supported so I can do Y" in a certain timeframe. As the inspectors (and business owners) always rib, there's never enough time to do it the first time, but always enough time to redo it.
 
Personally, I'd use J hooks...common enough to find and easy enough to size and rework as needed or cabling added.
 
http://www.erico.com/products/CADDYcfcCableCat.asp
 
There's also http://www.erico.com/products/CADDYCATCR50.asp. I haven't seen these in the wild too often, most likely a case of the trade houses don't carry as much variety or the contractors don't know.
 
Without knowing how the original supports were put in, I would say you should be able to remove 1 between an existing pair and then resupport once the velcro is pulled.
 
Cable tray and ladder rack, by the time you put in all the fittings and consider the bends, changes in elevation, etc. is going to be the most expensive and complex method to support LV cabling. Usually it's used in locations where there is a LOT of cabling or the need to pull in a LOT of future cabling is going to be needed...or in the case of some larger buildings, a way to pull the cabling in without disturbing staff, as much as that is possible.
 
Thanks, DEL.
 
I've been using the 2" PVC conduit 2 hole straps for LV cables, because there isn't anything else available locally.
 
I probably don't have more than 30 around the house, so would be pretty cheap to replace them.  Maybe someday.
 
I was looking at that Cablofil tray the other day, for the wiring closet.  Couldn't find any on ebay.  Maybe I'll set up an automatic search there.
 
Edit - lots of Cablofil on ebay; I was searching for the Cablofil Mini product specifically, the other day.
 
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