HVAC Brand Opinions

[CharlieWayne]

Take a look at this video.

Shows very effective and efficient HVAC systems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vie4kHN_iYU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

It's worthy of a quote and investigation for your home.

It's something I'm considering to reduce our 9 ton HVAC system requirment.

 

[etc6849]

You are a much nicer guy than me.  I know the guy is your friend and all, but I would rip into him if he cost me several hundred dollars and didn't fix my problem correctly.  You should expect a person to do their job correctly and accept nothing less.  If he can't do his job correctly, he has no business doing it.
 
I don't think your unit is overcharged, but it could have been.  I think you most likely had a leak and the guy was an idiot for adding 6 lbs of refrigerant without first looking for the leak.  As for meggering, unless you personally verified the megger was calibrated and read the instructions yourself, I would not trust an HVAC guy to use it correctly (especially one stupid enough to put in 6lbs of refrigerant without looking for a leak first).  Further, before meggering anything, I would contact the manufacturer of the motor and study their procedures/expected values etc...  Usually meggering measurements are most useful when trended over time...
 
There is no reason why the leak can't be fixed as the system will work fine, but obviously, the choice is yours.  It shouldn't be more than $1000 to have the system running fine again if you find someone competent.  I still stand by my statement that 70% of all techs can't be relied on or trusted.  I know all techs can't be engineers, but they should at least be able to follow manufacturer instructions, do basic troubleshooting etc...
 
If you do put a new unit in, be sure to read a refrigeration book and the manufacturer's installation instructions.  Make sure the folks installing the thing follow the instructions to the letter on evacuating the system to less than 500 microns, charging the system properly, etc...  You must be proactive when working with any tech in the HVAC industry.
 
I'm not sure if you realize this or not, but it really doesn't matter what efficiency you have installed if it's not charged properly.  Based on the techs you've had out, I would not expect to save any money on my electricity bill.  For example, if the superheat (fixed orfice) or subcooling measurement (for txv) is off 7 degrees or more,  you will see very little to no cost savings from a more efficient unit.  If your techs use the +/- 10% psig gauges, think about how much off the superheat and subcooling measurements are.  Unless the tech has very good digital gauges (such as the Testo 550 series) to measure pressures, subcooling and superheat, your unit will likely be gassed incorrectly as techs are too lazy to use a calculator, measure temperature of the suction and discharge line, etc...  Energy star did a study and found very few systems were charged correctly (I think only 25% of 13,000 units were properly charged).
 
As for number 8, it's hard to tell what the issue is.  It could be that you have a fixed orifice system and the installer did not install the correct orifice/piston in the a-coil.  There is no way to know if this is true without taking accurate measurements of the installed system.  This would be a stupid mistake as the instructions clearly say not to do this.  If you have the leak fixed, have them check that the piston/orifice is the correct size.  It sounds like the distributor you talked to is full of it unless they came out to your house with test equipment.

 

[dgage]

Etc,

I live in Knoxville, TN and I may need to replace my aging 12/13 year old system soon. Want a paid vacation to the Knoxville (Smoky Mountains) area just to make sure my units get installed correctly? Sounds like it would definitely be worth my expense for your vacation.

David

 

[tmbrown97]

etc - I appreciate the info - and agree with dgage - you'd be handy to have around when this gets installed!
 
Good information on the refrigerant levels - I was reading about the new Trane units and I guess they have a lot more smarts built in now including an automatic fill function where you don't even need any gauges - just hook up their unit and it'll fill itself to the perfect level within 4oz.  Without that, it has some diagnostic lights to tell you when it's right.
 
The deal with the buddy of mine - I didn't ask him to do a real fix - he knew I was pricing out a new system but it was to be 107° the following day - he dropped by on a friday night just to see what was up and gave me the option - dump a few pounds in since it was clearly low, or ignore it and sweat - I decided the money I'd spend was less than a rental AC would cost and more effective if it worked... it was a coin toss that I'd hoped would buy me a month... and, this is why I don't gamble!  
 
As for the megger, I did some research and I read about the problems from using incorrectly and the potential inaccuracies - I know he didn't really know how to use it properly and he had the dumbed down one that just shows a series of lights from fine to screwed...  All that said, you'd have to hear this thing start up - everyone around looks around with this look of "what on earth was that!?!?" - it's really loud and obnoxious and during startup and pulls a pretty large inrush current - then it's very noisy.  
 
I would love to have something that ran much quieter and just stayed on vs. cycling every 9 minutes... and I think I mentioned this before - but when I went up to the attic to check on a few things, I found 1) the zone dampers open on demand rather than closing the unused damper - so a failure means the system runs closed; the whole design of the damper/duct system is odd - it's a signature of this particular company and nobody else likes it... that'll get cleaned up and replaced and new zone dampers put in - and 2) there's massive air leakage around the air handler - I mean, you turn on the air handler and it's windy up there - in a couple of places it just doesn't seal up, dumping a ton of my cool air into the attic - meaning it must be replaced with outside air - so the idea of that entire attic portion being all new (95% furnace instead of 80%, new air handler all sealed up tight, new zone dampers to replace my failing ones, and a new AC - with all parts matched and two-staged - I think it would save me a ton of money on cooling and make the house more comfortable.  Sure I hate to spend the money, but I live in CA where it's not uncommon to have some 115° days where the lows are in the mid 80's.
 
I really appreciate all the information you and others have shared - all this info and research will help me to oversee the replacement process and try to ensure that it's done correctly - and let the contractor know that I'm paying attention.

 

[ddennerline]

I am in similar boat and have spent a ton of time researching and buying. I am still in process of partially installing my own system. I settled on Goodman because of numerous online stores (sans no warranty).

1. Majority of HVAC companies will not perform a proper ManualJ load calculation. I purchased a laser measure and 3 month access to http://hvac-calc.com/. After completing calculation, I found that unit installed in my house was oversized and ductwork was not correct either.
2. Efficiency does matter to some extent because you cannot predict when your utility company is going to build a nuclear power plant and ask for rate hike to satisfy bond holders.
3. If you do not have a 90+ high efficiency furnace installed, you will probably have to change your venting. If you have 80% furnace, and furnace in vented in chimney, you may have to get the chimney “lined”. The codes related to venting have changed.
4. The majority of HVAC units – except high end systems have essentially the same parts. The difference is the installation and warranty support network.
5. Reputable HVAC companies due charge a premium because they have to pay Saleman’s commission. Finding a small (i.e., lower overhead), but talented HVAC company, can be difficult.
6. From the description provided, the unit probably died due to poor installation and lower quality unit. In talking with several HVAC technicians, they said it was common practice to push the installation envelope. R-410 units seem to be much more sensitive to good installation practices as compared to R-22 (due to higher pressure).
7. For higher seer HVAC system, the government is offering a rebate if you have not already used your energy efficient credit.

I think the takeaway is, don’t spend lots of money if your ductwork is not in order. Install the correct sized system. Check if any venting changes are required. Buy as efficient HVAC system where a properly maintained system will last. Pay extra to have a great install. I wouldn’t worry too much about manufacturer unless you are talking about inverter/heat pumps (http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?1088921-Inverter-variable-speed-compressors ).

 

[apostolakisl]

Another idea are the mini-split systems.  They are similar the VRF system that the video above was posted for.  I had a Mitsubishi VRF quoted for my office, it was over $100,000.  That compared to the $20,000 I ended up spending on a conventional heat pump.  Of course the system I got would have cost about $40,000 if I hadn't bought it using my friends license and contracted directly with a technician to install it.  The point still holds, VRF is really nice, but very hard to justify the cost.  VRF systems are only warranted when installed by their guys.  And just the hardware alone was going to be $60,000 for my office.  My office system is a 15 SEER single stage unit.  Based on my bills, I am please with the efficiency, but it is not as nice as my Infinity at home.  But I don't sleep at the office.
 
Back to my point.  The mini-split systems are quite efficient, very compact, very easy to zone, and don't require the giant silver octopus in the attic.  The refrigerant goes directly from a single outdoor unit to one or more air handlers which you locate near the point of use (or actually in the room, hanging on the wall.).  They are available up to 4 ton units.  They tend to be easy to install, but it will depend.  You have much less issues with leaking ducts since there are way less ducts to seal and the runs are much shorter.  If only 1 ton of demand is calling, the compressor only runs at 1 ton of output. .. in other words, it is a continuously variable compressor.  The units can be a DIY project.  You can buy the stuff without a license and there are no welds.  All fittings are flare fittings.
 
Here is a brochure.
 
http://www.fujitsugeneral.com/PDF_06/HFI_Multi_Brochure.pdf
 
If I were doing my office again, this is probably what I would put in.
 
EDIT: You will need to hire someone to charge it unless you have an EPA cert.

 

[ddennerline]

For R-410 systems, I believe no EPA license or certification is required. You will need to purchase about $300-$600 dollars in advanced equipment in order to safely and accurately charge system. If you are interested in HVAC, this book (http://www.amazon.com/Refrigeration-Conditioning-Technology-Bill-Whitman/dp/1401837654/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1374019939&sr=8-1&keywords=refrigerations+and+air+conditioning+technology) has 1300 pages of information.
 
I paid a professional to recycle the R-22 from 20yr AC in order to avoid a $10,000 fine. I could then cut apart HVAC for a few steak nights.
 
I agree with Lou that VRF/Inverter compressor technology seems to be the future. They are much easier to zone and use only the amount of BTUs required to meet area conditions. I just couldn’t find an easy way to hide all the external (i.e., unsightly) copper condenser linesets required to support multiple zones without opening walls. I still may purchase one to augment the always hot upstairs problem.

 

[apostolakisl]

For R-410 systems, I believe no EPA license or certification is required. You will need to purchase about $300-$600 dollars in advanced equipment in order to safely and accurately charge system. If you are interested in HVAC, this book (http://www.amazon.com/Refrigeration-Conditioning-Technology-Bill-Whitman/dp/1401837654/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1374019939&sr=8-1&keywords=refrigerations+and+air+conditioning+technology) has 1300 pages of information.
 
I paid a professional to recycle the R-22 from 20yr AC in order to avoid a $10,000 fine. I could then cut apart HVAC for a few steak nights.
 
I agree with Lou that VRF/Inverter compressor technology seems to be the future. They are much easier to zone and use only the amount of BTUs required to meet area conditions. I just couldn’t find an easy way to hide all the external (i.e., unsightly) copper condenser linesets required to support multiple zones without opening walls. I still may purchase one to augment the always hot upstairs problem.

 
One of the fujitsu units uses a single line set with a distribution box.  Saves a little on copper that way too, but the distribution box costs a few hundred dollars so it all balances out in the end.
 
this one
 
http://ecomfort.com/products/fujitsu-aou48rlxfz-multizone-up-to-8-zones-mini-split-outdoor-condenser--48000-btu/4850?utm_source=adwordsfroogle&utm_medium=product_search&utm_campaign=adwordsfroogle&utm_content=4850&gclid=CPKu8NqvtbgCFWIV7AodAVoA8g
 
If you want the best zoned experience, these are really the way to go.  It is very challenging to zone a conventional system especially if you want several zones.  If only one zone is calling in a 3 or 4 zone system, conventional systems are a challenge.

 

[CharlieWayne]

I forgot if the video talked about this but a major advantage to a VRF is its start up power draw (next to nothing) and also its ability to reduce condenser output as low as 20% of capacity. This reduces on power spikes on starting up large motors @ 100% load.

At first I was very excited at this idea but the draw back came when I seen the price associated with this style of system. They offer a variety of different evaporators/air handlers from wall units like in Asia or hidden units that can be ducted or non ducted. This has an advantage of a reduction in cost of for a duct system.


Even if that savings from the duct system and lower engery consumption could justify the cost of such a system, what does anyone suspect the true savings would be and payback timeframe?

The idé is great but here in FL our electricity only cost 12 cents per KW. At.this rate it makes it harder than say someone in CA or other high rate states.

I'm totally down with DYI but I feel that anyone trying to go at an HVAC project either by themself or hiring Howe blow contractor for the install should hire an HVAC Engineer that will design the true load calculation and duct design. Following the install they offer QC services to ensure all is to spec.

If you think u bought a Seer 22 but yet had low Freon and leaking ducts from short cuts you might be looking at in reality a SEER 8 or lower. I don't know if those numbers are right but the spirit of what I'm trying to express is that its a conflict.of intrest to allow people to perform all services without any oversight. Do u really think the installer would really tell u that he disnt k now how to charge properly and his ducts were leaking.

Even more important I believe in the load calculation is to locate waste energy sources in the building. Can sealing or insulation help reduce the load calc? Would u get more comformt and better return on your money on these enhancements first?

Once thing I haven't looked into with the VRF is how Home Automation can be incorporated. Does it use normal Tstats as we have been using already with automation? If not who is willing to write plugins for hardware few people will own.

Overall I believe the idea is amazing but many questions still need to be answered.

 

[apostolakisl]

I forgot if the video talked about this but a major advantage to a VRF is its start up power draw (next to nothing) and also its ability to reduce condenser output as low as 20% of capacity. This reduces on power spikes on starting up large motors @ 100% load.

At first I was very excited at this idea but the draw back came when I seen the price associated with this style of system. They offer a variety of different evaporators/air handlers from wall units like in Asia or hidden units that can be ducted or non ducted. This has an advantage of a reduction in cost of for a duct system.


Even if that savings from the duct system and lower engery consumption could justify the cost of such a system, what does anyone suspect the true savings would be and payback timeframe?

The idé is great but here in FL our electricity only cost 12 cents per KW. At.this rate it makes it harder than say someone in CA or other high rate states.

I'm totally down with DYI but I feel that anyone trying to go at an HVAC project either by themself or hiring Howe blow contractor for the install should hire an HVAC Engineer that will design the true load calculation and duct design. Following the install they offer QC services to ensure all is to spec.

If you think u bought a Seer 22 but yet had low Freon and leaking ducts from short cuts you might be looking at in reality a SEER 8 or lower. I don't know if those numbers are right but the spirit of what I'm trying to express is that its a conflict.of intrest to allow people to perform all services without any oversight. Do u really think the installer would really tell u that he disnt k now how to charge properly and his ducts were leaking.

Even more important I believe in the load calculation is to locate waste energy sources in the building. Can sealing or insulation help reduce the load calc? Would u get more comformt and better return on your money on these enhancements first?

Once thing I haven't looked into with the VRF is how Home Automation can be incorporated. Does it use normal Tstats as we have been using already with automation? If not who is willing to write plugins for hardware few people will own.

Overall I believe the idea is amazing but many questions still need to be answered.

 
 
Charlie,
 
I went through the whole 9 yards with a VRF system when I was building out my 5,000sf office a little over a year ago.  The only system I considered was the Mitsubishi.  There was only one local co who could install it per Mitsubishi requirements.  The cost was astronomical.  Well over $100,000.  There is NOOOOOO way that this cost would ever be recovered (compared to $20,000 for conventional), even if it only used $1 worth of electricity per year.  To put things in perspective, I went with a conventional 15 SEER heat pump.  My average electric bill (everything, not just hvac) is about $350/mo.  My lowest bill ever was about $200 in a month where the system barely turned on.  So figure $150/mo for HVAC or roughly $1,800/year.  Like I said, if the system used $1 per year in electricity, it would take 40 years to break even.  But in reality, it probably would take about 120 years at current electric rates, and that is at 0% interest.  With pretty much any cost of money, it is a growing loss of money as the interest exceeds your energy savings.
 
The mini-split systems offer almost all of the advantages of the VRF systems at way less cost.  You can't heat and cool at the same time, but that is an unusual need for most people (mini-split can switch back and forth).  They use the same sytle of mini-air handlers, wall mounted air handlers, and ceiling casette air handlers.  Sadly, I wasn't familiar with the mini-split until after I had started installing the conventional system.
 
The VRF systems use thermostats that are more or less the same as regular thermostats from the user perspective.  However, I believe they use special comm protocol.  I don't think they use the normal wiring scheme and I don't think you can swap out with a generic thermostat.
 
EDIT: and also, the mini-splits use the same inverter driven compressor type that the VRF uses.  So they don't just "slam" on and cut off like typical single or 2 speed compressors.  They ramp up and ramp down and can run at roughly 20% to 100% capacity or anywhere in between.  As a result of this, matching the system perfectly to the load is much less important.  Provided you don't undersize of vastly oversize your system, the units will ramp down to match the demand.  You can purposefully oversize your system a bit just so you can still handle the rare super-high demand 105 degree day when you have a party of 30 people in your house without sacrificing performance on the 90 degree day when you and your wife are just lounging around.  The cycling and humidity issues that ensue can to a large degree be taken care of by the units themselves simply behaving like a smaller unit when the btu's aren't needed.

 

[CharlieWayne]

There's lots of other Asian companies that have been making systems of this such for a while. Even state side companies are getting into manufacturing of this and all can hope to see a significant drop in cost.

One thing I noticed with Mitsu is they don't offer a traditional air handler. If you put caskets or wall units in every room I could understand the extreme in pricing. There is a company online who sells these types of systems to the public. They carry multiple manufacturers products but as you stated I don't know what would happen if an individual were to buy.

Some manufacturers only require that certified people do the connections and startup of certain systems which leads me to believe that individuals can purchase, do the rough install, then håve a pro come buy to do QC, connections, and charging.

Everyone's building will have different requirements so I don't think its safe to rule things out. I'll write more later but here's a website for LG. http://www.lg-vrf.com/indoor-units-ducted.aspx

LG and others offer a direct replacement air handler which will eliminate the need of many costly evaporators/air handlers.

 

[apostolakisl]

Mitsubishi does have ducted air handlers, both in their mini-split and the VRF.  My office bid included six of them.  I didn't have any of the cassettes or wall hanging units in my bid.  They also wanted like $3,000 to add the hot water heater.  Frankly, they are just nuts.  None of this makes any sense. . . dollars and sense that is.  It was just a regular 50 gallon tank, not like some gigantic hotel version or something.  Electricity would have to cost 10 times what it does now for this to make sense.
 
Good luck finding a Mitsubishi certified contractor to agree to certify and do start up only.  But I can't rule it out.
 
ecomfort.com sells an assortment of minisplits from Mitsubishi, LG, Fugitsu, and maybe others.  The mini-splits don't cost much more than conventional systems and really do offer tremendous efficiency, control, and comfort when it comes to zoning.  Unless you have some special reason for a full fledged VRF, I have a hard time figuring out why you would do it.

 

[tmbrown97]

I've considered a mini-split to augment where the 5-ton is insufficient for this house...  I hope to not be here long enough to justify it though.
 
If I were building my "last" home, I'd probably have the ductless mini-split, solar, etc - because I want the conveniences and without worrying as much about how much of my investment I hope to recover.
 
One of these days I need to post my conclusion to this whole adventure as it's 95% complete...

 

[apostolakisl]

I've considered a mini-split to augment where the 5-ton is insufficient for this house...  I hope to not be here long enough to justify it though.
 
If I were building my "last" home, I'd probably have the ductless mini-split, solar, etc - because I want the conveniences and without worrying as much about how much of my investment I hope to recover.
 
One of these days I need to post my conclusion to this whole adventure as it's 95% complete...

 
Does your 5 ton system fail to keep up because it is poorly designed and/or installed and/or not functioning at rated tonnage?  
 
I ask this basically because it is possible you might be able to get by with a 4 ton unit.  In which case you could use a single 4 ton minisplit with 4 zones using the mini ducted air handlers.  It is very common for lower quality hvac guys to over-size the system and it would seem like your house had one of them.  A 4 zone 4 ton mini-split heat pump could probably be installed for less than $10k if you contract it out yourself.
 
http://ecomfort.com/aou48rlxfz2aru9rlf2aru18rlf-quad-zone-concealed-duct-mini-split-heat-pump-54000-btu-4929.html

 

[intermediatic]

Units being replaced before they are a decade old. Terrifying!

We upgraded our system last year, from 30 year old units that were working fine. There is no savings to our pocketbook, but the comfort level is way higher.
 
What RAM said though. As you have already found, it's the installer that matters, not the unit. I shopped around, had 6 bids. Didn't pick the lowest or the highest. We've had a few issues here and again owing to the complexity of the system (we also ripped our baseboard and went with forced air heat ) but it works well now.