installing security controller without a can

[coldfeet]

I'm just about ready to install an ELK M1 based security system in my house. The system controller will go inside a locked closet. I've seen many posts where people have mentioned that they are often running out of space in their cans as they add on to the system over time. Since I have a lockable closet that I can dedicate to the pursuits of home security and automation, is there any reason why I shouldn't just mount the system to the wall without using a can?

Thanks.

 

[aehusted]

Is the lockable feature the only reason to have the can? I was debating getting an additional one for all the stuff I am adding on, but I don't really see the point.

I'm just about ready to install an ELK M1 based security system in my house. The system controller will go inside a locked closet. I've seen many posts where people have mentioned that they are often running out of space in their cans as they add on to the system over time. Since I have a lockable closet that I can dedicate to the pursuits of home security and automation, is there any reason why I shouldn't just mount the system to the wall without using a can?

Thanks.

 

[Digger]

I'm just about ready to install an ELK M1 based security system in my house. The system controller will go inside a locked closet. I've seen many posts where people have mentioned that they are often running out of space in their cans as they add on to the system over time. Since I have a lockable closet that I can dedicate to the pursuits of home security and automation, is there any reason why I shouldn't just mount the system to the wall without using a can?

Thanks.

I beleive a lot of people do exactly what you do. If I remember correctly Spanky (Elk's Chief Engineer) does what you want to do. I believe he mounted a sheet of plywood on one wall.

 

[aehusted]

I believe he mounted a sheet of plywood on one wall.

I thought I was the only one using this advanced technique

 

[Prefect]

I recall running across a UL requirement that the unit be enclosed in an acceptable enclosure. This may be an issue if you are seeking to get a discount on your homeowner's insurance.

I re-read through the ELK M1 manual and it's misleading because one section does not mention an enclosure requirement for household burglary/fire, but a later one does:

Household Burglary (UL 1023), Household Fire (UL 985), Digital Alarm Communicator (UL 1635) Listed Installations
* At least one compatible keypad is needed for all applications.
* At least one bell fixture is required for all applications.
* Household Burg requires 4 hours of standby power. Limit combined continuous current draw from terminals +SAUX, +VAUX, +VKP, and
connector J16 to 1 Amp max. and use one (1) 8 Ah battery.
* Household Fire/Home Health Care requires 24 hours of standby power. Limit combined continuous current draw from terminals +SAUX,
+VAUX, +VKP, and connector J16 to 500 mA and use two (2) 8 Ah batteries in parallel.
* Force Arming and Auto Arming shall not be enabled
* For Household Fire Listed Installations the indicating devices shall be a Wheelock 34T-12 or equivalent.
* Initiating and indicating devices must be rated at 11.5 to 12.4 VDC.
* For Household applications the minimum alarm cutoff time for the audible devices shall be 5 minutes.
* Zone Swinger Shutdown shall not be enabled.
* Remote Downloading shall not be used on UL Listed systems.
* Communicator Dial Delay time shall be set to “0”.
* For Household Burg Listed Installations the maximum entry delay time shall be 45 seconds and the max. exit delay time shall be 60 seconds.
* 24-hour communicator test transmission is required.
* The silent keypad option shall not be enabled.

The later section that seems to indicate that an enclosure is a requirement:

LISTED ENCLOSURES:
For Household Burglar or Household Fire Listed Installations one of the following enclosures must be used:
* ELK 14” Enclosure model ELK-SWB14 or ELK-UB14
* ELK 28” Enclosure model ELK-SWB28
* OnQ Legrand 14” Enclosure models 363474-01or 363474-11 utilizing the Universal Mounting plate part no. 364453. Not LISTED FOR CANADA
* OnQ Legrand 28” Enclosure models 363475-01, 363475-11, 364591-01, 364591-02 or364591-11 utilizing the Universal Mounting plate part no.
364453. Not LISTED FOR CANADA
* OnQ Legrand 42” Enclosure models 363476-01,363476-11,364592-01, 364592-02, or 364592-11 utilizing the Universal Mounting plate part no.
364453. Not LISTED FOR CANADA
For Commercial Listed Installations one of the following enclosures must be used:
* ELK-TB14 Tamper Resistant Enclosure
* GE “Caddx” NX003-C with an ELK-61205684 Mounting Adapter Plate (See diagrams below)

Also, it seems to be a definite requirement for commercial applications:

Commercial - Central Station (UL 1610), Police Station Connected (UL 365), Local Burglar Alarm (UL 609) Listed Installations
Requirements described under UL1023 plus:
* The Alarm Cutoff timer must be set to 00900 sec. (15 min.) or greater.
* UL Commercial Burg requires 4 hours of standby power. Limit combined continuous current draw from terminals +SAUX, +VAUX, +VKP, and
connector J16 to 450 mA max. and use one (1) 8 Ah battery.
* An acceptable Commercial enclosure must be used (see Listed Enclosures below)
* A UL LIsted Tamper Switch(s) must be installed on the enclosure and connected to a 24 hour Burg Tamper defined Zone.
* All Keypads need to be installed within the protected area (they have no tamper)
* DO NOT USE an A B Attack Cabinet for the external sounder
* A Whenever/And/Then rule should be written (using ElkRP software) to enable the Output 2 Siren to ‘chirp’ upon closing ringback.

Does anyone know more about this issue? Is it a moot point because DIY installs can never be officially UL compliant anyway?

 

[Photon]

[Photo withdrawn]

 

[CollinR]

I think I am going to bolt my boards on rackmount sliding shelves, which should also cover any enclosure concerns.

I have a generic rack now but hopefully I'll be getting a nice 20 something U enclosure and be done with it!

 

[Digger]

I recall running across a UL requirement that the unit be enclosed in an acceptable enclosure. This may be an issue if you are seeking to get a discount on your homeowner's insurance.

I re-read through the ELK M1 manual and it's misleading because one section does not mention an enclosure requirement for household burglary/fire, but a later one does:

Household Burglary (UL 1023), Household Fire (UL 985), Digital Alarm Communicator (UL 1635) Listed Installations
* At least one compatible keypad is needed for all applications.
* At least one bell fixture is required for all applications.
* Household Burg requires 4 hours of standby power. Limit combined continuous current draw from terminals +SAUX, +VAUX, +VKP, and
connector J16 to 1 Amp max. and use one (1) 8 Ah battery.
* Household Fire/Home Health Care requires 24 hours of standby power. Limit combined continuous current draw from terminals +SAUX,
+VAUX, +VKP, and connector J16 to 500 mA and use two (2) 8 Ah batteries in parallel.
* Force Arming and Auto Arming shall not be enabled
* For Household Fire Listed Installations the indicating devices shall be a Wheelock 34T-12 or equivalent.
* Initiating and indicating devices must be rated at 11.5 to 12.4 VDC.
* For Household applications the minimum alarm cutoff time for the audible devices shall be 5 minutes.
* Zone Swinger Shutdown shall not be enabled.
* Remote Downloading shall not be used on UL Listed systems.
* Communicator Dial Delay time shall be set to “0”.
* For Household Burg Listed Installations the maximum entry delay time shall be 45 seconds and the max. exit delay time shall be 60 seconds.
* 24-hour communicator test transmission is required.
* The silent keypad option shall not be enabled.

The later section that seems to indicate that an enclosure is a requirement:

LISTED ENCLOSURES:
For Household Burglar or Household Fire Listed Installations one of the following enclosures must be used:
* ELK 14” Enclosure model ELK-SWB14 or ELK-UB14
* ELK 28” Enclosure model ELK-SWB28
* OnQ Legrand 14” Enclosure models 363474-01or 363474-11 utilizing the Universal Mounting plate part no. 364453. Not LISTED FOR CANADA
* OnQ Legrand 28” Enclosure models 363475-01, 363475-11, 364591-01, 364591-02 or364591-11 utilizing the Universal Mounting plate part no.
364453. Not LISTED FOR CANADA
* OnQ Legrand 42” Enclosure models 363476-01,363476-11,364592-01, 364592-02, or 364592-11 utilizing the Universal Mounting plate part no.
364453. Not LISTED FOR CANADA
For Commercial Listed Installations one of the following enclosures must be used:
* ELK-TB14 Tamper Resistant Enclosure
* GE “Caddx” NX003-C with an ELK-61205684 Mounting Adapter Plate (See diagrams below)

Also, it seems to be a definite requirement for commercial applications:

Commercial - Central Station (UL 1610), Police Station Connected (UL 365), Local Burglar Alarm (UL 609) Listed Installations
Requirements described under UL1023 plus:
* The Alarm Cutoff timer must be set to 00900 sec. (15 min.) or greater.
* UL Commercial Burg requires 4 hours of standby power. Limit combined continuous current draw from terminals +SAUX, +VAUX, +VKP, and
connector J16 to 450 mA max. and use one (1) 8 Ah battery.
* An acceptable Commercial enclosure must be used (see Listed Enclosures below)
* A UL LIsted Tamper Switch(s) must be installed on the enclosure and connected to a 24 hour Burg Tamper defined Zone.
* All Keypads need to be installed within the protected area (they have no tamper)
* DO NOT USE an A B Attack Cabinet for the external sounder
* A Whenever/And/Then rule should be written (using ElkRP software) to enable the Output 2 Siren to ‘chirp’ upon closing ringback.

Does anyone know more about this issue? Is it a moot point because DIY installs can never be officially UL compliant anyway?

Most professional installed residential systems are not UL Compliant anyway. For the insurance discount for residential applications the insurance company usually is looking for a UL Certificated Central Station. If you use NextAlarm you can generate the letter with their online system. Nobody would come to your house and check in most cases.

If the alarm is required for a certificate of occupancy or you need a permit that requires an inspection this would be a concern.

FYI Spaky will tell you that I was the one that made ELK put all that information in their manual.......

 

[Prefect]

Most professional installed residential systems are not UL Compliant anyway. For the insurance discount for residential applications the insurance company usually is looking for a UL Certificated Central Station. If you use NextAlarm you can generate the letter with their online system. Nobody would come to your house and check in most cases.

If the alarm is required for a certificate of occupancy or you need a permit that requires an inspection this would be a concern.

FYI Spaky will tell you that I was the one that made ELK put all that information in their manual.......

Thanks for the info, Digger.

I've read in a few places around the Cocoon forums that sometimes the insurance company might send someone out to your house to check your system if you were filing a burglary claim. Some even said these inspectors are pretty astute and might pick up on stuff like non-current-limited wiring (e.g. battery wiring) being too close to other wiring, etc. The upshot was that it might give them an excuse to deny your claim. Frankly I don't want to give them yet another possible excuse to deny claims, but maybe that's just being too paranoid.

If you think about it, on some level it does make some sense. If they don't inspect your system (which most people seem to claim is the case), how do they know you don't have a gaping hole in your security plan? All the monitoring in the world is great, but if the burglars get in without setting the system off, it doesn't do much good.

 

[rayder]

I recently purchased an OnQ 42" enclosure for mounting an M1G ( + expanders, etc. ) for a new construction project. I ordered the 364453 Ademco Universal Mounting Plate (referenced in the installation manual) to mount the control board to, but that model has been replaced by 364715-01 Ademco Universal Mounting Plate so I received that instead. The new model appears to be incompatible with the Elk board, regardless of whether or not the elk surface mount plastic box is used. It doesn't look like there is any good documentation for OnQ mounting plate compatibility out there.

 

[Spanky]

If you are not installing a UL certified job in which 99.99999% percent of you are NOT, then you have you read around some of the information that DIGGER insisted we add to the manual.

We probably need a manual for the normal installation that includes common sense techniques! LOL.


We still love you DIGGER!




Note: DIGGER is X UL.

 

[Digger]

If you are not installing a UL certified job in which 99.99999% percent of you are NOT, then you have you read around some of the information that DIGGER insisted we add to the manual.

We probably need a manual for the normal installation that includes common sense techniques! LOL.


We still love you DIGGER!




Note: DIGGER is X UL.

Hey I am on your side of the fence now and trying to get those requirements changed. I have had some luck on a few so far.

 

[rayder]

I must amend my earlier statement about the Ademco universal mounting plate compatibility with the Elk M1. I had expected it to work out of the box with the pre-drilled holes and two riser nuts on the mounting plate. This was not the case. I had to custom drill mounting holes to mount the Elk panel to the mounting plate, but doing so was very easy and I was able to mount the Elk board to the mounting plate. So, to sum up, the Ademco universal mounting plate does appear to be the correct solution for mounting the Elk M1 in an OnQ enclosure, but it requires some custom hole drilling.