Insteon or UPB?

[AutomatedOutlet]

I don't know if I want it to really go mainstream.

Wouldn't bother me :lol:

the UPB "Buzz" kept me away

I don't notice it much but I actually think it sounds kind of cool.

other than the issue of not being able press two switches at one time

Very big issue to me. When you leave a room, you frequently have to turn off two lights at the same time.....

 

[Steve]

I think in some ways this debate is based on a false premise: That UPB and INSTEON are in direct competition and price is the biggest differentiator.

My take is that these two technologies will play in different markets and not impact each other that much. I see UPB as the "professional standard" favored by installers and homebuilders. I see it highly integrated with dealer installed products such as HAI OMNI, Crestron and the like. Because of this model I expect prices to remain high even though several companies will make UPB products.

Why do you feel that way Mike? I think UPB is favored by pros because of their historical choices. Over the past few years, what was it - X10 or UPB? That was a no brainer for pros. UPB is not a closed system like Crestron - it is an open standard with a 'free'ly available software package that is powerful yet easy to use. I can get geeky but for the most part I like something straight forward to install.

I think INSTEON will compete in the DIY market with Z-Wave. The lower cost of entry and the plug-in phase coupling make it more accessible to end users and the local programming strategy that is a problem in professional installations actually helps keep things simple in the DIY world.

You see, there is that price factor (lower cost of entry) :lol:. And why is plug in couplers (especially RF based) such a big thing for diy? A lot of people use hardwire x10 couplers and are happy. I bet the UPB mfg's could create a simple plug in coupler if that would really make the diff.

I see lots of designer styling options in the future for UPB but not too many geeky gadgets. INSTEON on the other hand seems more likely to replace X-10 as the protocol embraced on hobbyist platforms like xAP/xPL, Misterhouse, etc.

Why no geeky gadgets? They have a cool I/O module. I don't see any technical reason, I think it is more of a marketing thing. They probably left the cheap x10 stuff for the geeks while they focused on pros. It is possible they will be content to sit back and just let Insteon essentially replace x10 or they could get aggressive, tool more products and lower prices and compete aggressively.

Hey Martin - you have said repeatedly that you have a bunch of pros that get UPB from you for installs. I'm sure you have had many interesting conversations with them. Can you give us more of a perspective from in their heads why they use UPB? Do they like it because it is more expensive and they can charge more - because it was the best/most reliable available? Have you had any conversations with them about Insteon? Do they think Insteon is going to steal some of their biz?

 

[fitzpatri8]

Eventually, I'm hoping for the success of all the new HA protocols, since competition drives cost reduction and innovation. Imagine how bland the product would be if only Chevy (or only Ford, or only Toyota...) built cars & trucks!

 

[kwilcox]

Installers can generally get distributor pricing for UPB. That easily places the quantity 1 US11 switch prices into the $50-$55 range. Additional volume purchase discounts can lower the per-device cost even more substantially. It's quite likely that whole-home installers are paying very close to what we would pay for Insteon. I would imagine that if you ordered 500 US11 switches from Martin that he could cut you a substantial discount.

This plus the high quality switches (size usually isn't an issue on new installs as the devices easily fit into modern junction boxes), protocol reliability and easy whole house network setup using a Laptop, PIM and UPStart could be some of the reasons why installers choose UPB.

 

[upstatemike]

Installers can generally get distributor pricing for UPB. That easily places the quantity 1 US11 switch prices into the $50-$55 range. Additional volume purchase discounts can lower the per-device cost even more substantially.

So if I can buy INSTEON switches that are $40 dollars to start with in large enough quantities for a volume discount, they could end up costing like $10 or $15 each? Where do I sign up?

 

[kwilcox]

I can't speak to Insteon since I'm not a distributor. It's hard to imagine V2 switchlinc prices getting much lower than what are currently being charged though. Based on this, I'd guess that the Insteon pricing model is more consumer oriented. That being the case, the quantity discount would be far less.

 

[WayneW]

The discount may be less dollar wise, but may be similar percentage wise, I honestly don't know. Martin sells the Insteon stuff for the same price as SmartHome, and I assume he is buying for less than he is selling, so there has to be some profit margin in there.

 

[kwilcox]

UPB retail pricing reminds me of Cisco retail pricing. In the Cisco world, if you weren't getting at least 30% off retail, you weren't trying hard enough. "Gold" resellers purchased at 60% off retail. I say this because it really wasn't hard for me to land dealer status for UPB in terms of pricing and as I was going through the motions it reminded me a lot of my past Cisco buying experiences.

This is where UPB wants to be I think. Sold for the most part to distributors and volume installers.

 

[Bruce L]

Ok where do I sign up to get UPB dealer status ?

 

[kwilcox]

You generally need to start by owning or running a business that has a valid TaxID. From that point, Google for UPB distributors that also have online ordering. Many of those will let you apply for dealer status using your company's credentials. There are even a few out there that don't require a valid TaxID to grant dealer status.

 

[kwilcox]

A quick point on UPB "buzz" because I just noticed that $50 UPB switches "without the buzz" were on the list...

I first found out about the UPB buzz when I purchased my UMI-32 IO module. This after I already had two UPB switches and a lamp module installed in my home office. Well, a contact close sensing output wasn't working correctly, so I called SAI support to troubleshoot. The guy asked "can you hear the buzz when the contact closes? I said "Buzz? What Buzz?" and he proceeded to tell me that all UPB devices make a characteristic buzzing noise when activated. Well, there was no buzz, so I went down to the office where two UPB US11's were installed and switched one on. Still no buzz, so I stuck my ear about 6" from the switch and then sure enough, there it was.

To tell the truth, I still probably wouldn't know that they buzzed if that guy from SAI hadn't told me....

 

[tekman]

I am new to this site and I gotta tell you it is great. In terms of this Insteon v. UPB v. Z-wave debate is it really a debate? I mean, it is all about sell through. Most of us are early adopters. The company/technology that can bring down prices the fastest is going to win bottomline and all of the other SW and HW vendors will fall in line. If I were a betting man though I would have to go with Insteon as well. After all Insteon has a built in channel that the others do not have, it works with my x-10 stuff and based on todays announcement looks like it is easier to develop...

 

[bfisher]

It may win in the DIY market, but what about the professionals? I imagine (only my guess) that the Pro market is bigger than the DIY market... And my guess is UPB is leading in the Pro market...

 

[AutomatedOutlet]

Well over 85% of the PRO installers that buy from us are using UPB now.

 

[jimspobox]

The Pro installers use UPB because there is software to control it! Hopefully when Elk comes out with their Insteon support that will change and we can see Insteon being used for true "automation".

But until then, UPB is the best on the block for now, it works and has hardware and software support!