Insteon vs UPB (again)

[artifice]

Hey all,

I know this question or similar has been asked over and over in this and many other venues. I'm posting it again because:

1) I have to make up my mind this weekend.
2) There have been changes in both Insteon and UPB lines of equipment.

According to my research, Insteon early on was plagued by physical device failures (such as the toggles and switch contacts). But this seems to have been resolved for the most part in recent firmware revisioned switches. Also Insteon tends to run cheaper per dimmer/switch than comparable UPB.

UPB on the other hand, I've read that generation one switches seemed to have issues with delay in response, however this seems to also have been corrected by most vendors as they move to generation two devices.

Originally I was going to implement my home with about 70 Insteon devices, I liked how they create mesh communication to help prevent loss of command. However it's been suggested to me that the UPB doesn't need this because it has a much stronger signal.

I'm considering using all Simply Automated US240's, which are the universal bodies. This approach seems to offer a great deal more than Insteon, in that each body can be a switch, dimmer, timer, keypad, or mixture based on the face plate and programming involved. Additionally it appears I can devorce the control of the connected device (recess light, etc) from the local switch/keypad. Allowing me to annex control of the local device away.

Beyond the obvious difference in cost, has anyone had experience with this device? Is it generation two? Are there any pitfalls with it I should be aware of?

Finally, before I make my decision this weekend on which to buy (Insteon or UPB), does anyone have anything negative to say on UPB? There seems to be a lot of plus / minus talk on Insteon, but not much chatter on UPB.

Thank you everyone for your help!!! Soon to start posting pictures of my project.

Sincerely,

David

 

[sloop]

i use a 6.5 second ramp rate on all my insteon - so there is nothing inste about it - big lag

it is telling how many complaints you hear about insteon and how little you hear about upb - that speaks volumes

add smarthome's 'cone of silense' company policy and their track record of addressing problems

i have about 70 craplincs - and would advise you to use very few keypads (if you make the mistake of going with insteon) - i have about 20 keypads and they add many, many links to your setup - seems dissatisfaction rises when as you add more keypads

 

[nightwalker]

IMHO UPB is the hands down winner, there really is no comparison between the two. To my way of thinking Smarthome shot themselves in the foot with their early efforts, empty promises, crappy hardware, even worse software and just plain lying to cover their butts.

 

[fcwilt]

If I had to choose I would select UPB, UPB and UPB in that order. The whole system is simple and well thought out. The configuration program UPstart works well and (for me) is easy to understand. I never could figure out Insteon and given SmartHome's track record I decided to go with UPB where I have a choice of vendors. The new US240's are, as you point out, very flexible. I also like the HAI controller only units (6 and 8 button) where the buttons are illuminated and can show you at a glance (for instance) what scenes are active.

 

[MikeB]

My personal experiences with Insteon vs UPB:

- I like the look of Insteon SwitchLincs better. Prefer the side LEDs that tell you the level of the light. Prefer the white light over UPB's colored LED.
- I like the look of Insteon KeypadLincs better with custom-etched buttons. I don't think UPB has anything that can match them aesthetically.
- I like the ability of the KeypadLinc to control a load if needed. In some cases I use it, in some cases I don't - but it's nice to have that ability.
- UPB switches are physically larger than Insteon switches, making them tougher to stuff into crowded electrical boxes.
- UPB is more expensive that Insteon.
- I'm a big fan of the Universal Device's ISY for Insteon. There's no UPB-compatible model (yet).

- I like the feel of UPB switches better. They have a more solid feel to them.
- I like their UPStart software and the diagnostics available in it. Can't beat the price (free).
- UPB Gen 2 seems very resistant to powerline noise. Missed commands should be less of a concern with UPB if you bridge your power legs, though Insteon command reliability has been good in my home.
- UPB has multiple manufacturers producing core products, so you can mix and match giving you a bit more flexibility.

Most of the above is subjective - if you haven't, consider purchasing a few of each type and trying them for yourself.

Good luck!

 

[Digger]

Dave,

Keep in mind people may have a financial interest in one of the choices which may sway their opinion.

My opinions which may also be facts in many cases.

1. Insteon has a horriable reliability track record that seems to be improving lately
2. SH often calls a bug fix an impovement and makes customers buy replacements rather than exchanging them (see their forums for some threads where SH said they would replace keypads and then did not etc) and this is just when I thought things were improving on that issue with them (personally does not affect me but does many others it seems)
3. Insteon has a very weak transmit signal strength compared to UPB (see the specs on both devices)
4. UPB is much more configurable at the device level (as you know)
5. There are many horror stories of SH customers (no need to elaborate)
6. There is only one mfg of basic Insteon devices (switches, dimmers etc) and if they go belly up you are out of luck in the future
7. SH is very slow in releasing new products and very seldom seems to meet target dates. The new Houselinc firmware and PLC were supposed to be released 2nd quarter of 2008 and it looks like they are going to miss it. It could be days, weeks, or months late. This is not a good sign of their capabilities and abilitiy to meet commitments that they make. (see SH own statements about releasing products etc)
8. UPB devices are often rated for higher loads then Insteon devices. (see the specs of both devices)

I think you will make the right choice.....

 

[artifice]

What about the SA US2-40? Is it still gen one? Does this really matter?

I like the features and flexibility of the US2-40's, but are they as stable? Is there a comparable gen 2 by anyone else?

--David

 

[Steve]

David, SAI switches are all first generation. SAI has a different philosophy and they believe much of the Gen II is marketing. In a noisy environment a Gen II device can have its sensitivity lowered which makes it more immune to noise, but that is at the cost of some signal strength without noise. In an average home with no known noise, SAI works just great. And there are a variety of filters available if you do run into a noise problem and you can identify it. You can analyze the &@* out of it but the bottom line is if you like the US240's for their flexibility, etc, I would not hesitate to use them, in fact at the current time that's mostly what I have.

I'm not 100% sure but I think Web Mountain may be using Gen II firmware in their switches, you may want to check with them if you are concerned. The web mountain stuff is essentially SAI with their own customized firmware.

 

[Event5]

What about the SA US2-40? Is it still gen one? Does this really matter?

I like the features and flexibility of the US2-40's, but are they as stable? Is there a comparable gen 2 by anyone else?

--David

The SA US2-40 is not Gen 2. There are thousands of "Gen 1" installations with no problems. There is a good chance you would have no problems with Gen 1, If you have time a simple test of your home can be done with UPStart, an lamp module and a PIM computer interface. Now days people are going with Gen 2 just to be safer. Web mountain sells Gen 2 products that are really Simply Automated products with a firmware change to make them Gen 2. I do not know if they sell a version of the US240.

In the past I have shared an UPStart sample file of an install I did a few years ago. I used US2-40s (top rocker, 4 button) in each room to give my customer 3 scenes and an off. If you would like to upload that file and view it on UPstart I will try to attach it here.

http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?act=at...ost&id=1444

Enjoy
Dave

 

[artifice]

I'm not as concerned with noise in the house (no CFLs) as I am with the "delays" in gen 1. I've seen alot of posts that say things like "The reason I picked Insteon over UPB is the delay". Supposedly this one of the major improvements in gen 2.

--David

 

[sloop]

i have not seen that many people complain about upb's delay that chose insteon - i think there is one that posts that complaint more often than i complain about insteon though (and not sure about how much upb was tried)

my answer to that argument is this - when you press a upb device, the light will come on eventually - with craplincs, its a crapshoot

 

[smcdonal]

I'm not as concerned with noise in the house (no CFLs) as I am with the "delays" in gen 1. I've seen alot of posts that say things like "The reason I picked Insteon over UPB is the delay". Supposedly this one of the major improvements in gen 2.

--David

Hi David,

I just bought around 35 SAI US2-40 + 15 US-R switches for my home. I've installed 30 of 50 so far. As far as your concerns regarding the delay, with the SAI switches you have the option of reducing the delay time down to 300 ms. It feels pretty much instant. I think the past complaints where when the default was 750 ms and it was not changeable. I think the "gen2" features are pretty much the improvements in handling noisy environments. The SAI US2-40 switches don't have a built in timer function btw but you can achieve the same thing with a central controller such as an Elk I believe (which I'm also still in the middle of setting up). I think SAI also has separate timer capable switches you can use as well but I'm not too familiar with them.

Some things I figured out after deciding to replace all my switches with UPB are:

- You don't need to use SAI US-R remote switches for 3-way lights. You can use US2-40's at additional cost. I wish I knew this before I went and bought 15 USR's.
- SAI USR switches are *NOT* lit unless the light is on... which is just dumb imho. I don't really need the LED on to find the light switch in the dark when the light is already on...
- You can wire the USR LED to be permanently on but its green. US2-40's default to blue when off, green when on. I wish the LED on the USR switch was blue if I could choose so they would match the other light switches when all the lights are off. You do have the option to configure the US2-40's LED to be green when off and blue when on which is cool... but blue is so much cooler imho =)
- I needed a phase coupler. I couldn't communicate with anything on the other phase until I put one in.

My reason's for not choosing Insteon were based on all the complaints that have been already mentioned and SH's business practices. I did like the look and price of the Insteon switches. BTW, I don't believe Insteon light switches are a dual mesh like the marketing might imply. I'm pretty sure I read that the Insteon protocol was capable of supporting it... but the light switches were powerline only. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I also figured if I *really* wanted something exclusive to Insteon I could, because supposedly you can run both at the same time.

I'm quite happy with the US2-40's so far. I really like the ability to swap faceplates. We went with a faceplate color that matched the trim color throughout the house and in the future if we choose to redo the color scheme its a relatively cheaper cost to change out just the faceplates, and its quick too!

Hope this helps you out.

Steve

 

[wuench]

I have Insteon, 12 switches in my home theater. And I just bought a Universal Devices ISY99i.

First of all, just to clear one point up. Insteon is NOT dual mesh. They are powerline only. Insteon is two protocols, one powerline, one wireless. The only wireless device currently available is the remotelinc.

1.) I like the looks of insteon, especially the keypads with the engraving option. The buttons light up to give feedback. UPB has keypads that do this too, but not the SAI ones. I really like the look of the SAI keypads though over the others. But I consider feedback important, it helps to know if, for example any of the lights are on downstairs w/o having to walk down there and look.

2.) Insteon reliability is not 100%. Every install requires signallincs to bridge phases, and you have to be careful where you install them. Insteon's biggest issue with reliability is when a scene is activated. A device sends the group command, then goes through "group cleanup" where it queries each switch. If any other traffic occurs in the meantime, group cleanup is canceled. You can use filters, but there are no tools to analyze the network and detect source of noise as there is with Upstart. I still have lights that don't come on all the time, depending on where I locate my controller.

3.) The Insteon linking paradigm takes some getting used to. For Insteon scenes/groups are locally significant. So there are no global groups, like in other protocols like X10 (and maybe UPB). This really becomes an issue with keeping devices in sync. For example, if you have a PC, and Elk, and a Keypadlinc. And you have a group of switches you need to control. You have to crosslink everything. So you setup the PC as a controller for the scene, the switches/lights as responders, and the keypadlinc button as a responder. Then you setup the Elk the same way. But if you have the PC turn on the group, there is no way for the Elk to know that scene was activate and vice versa, although you can have them poll the switches individually so it can figure out which lights are on eventually. This is because you turned on the PC's group A, NOT the Elk's group A and groups are significant locally to the switch. This is where the ISY comes in to save the day. It becomes your central controller, you create a single group, and all devices use the ISY to control the lighting.

4.) Insteon setup is SLOOOOOW. This is because of a firmware bug, that SH/SL refuses to acknowledge/fix. Their protocol is capable of communicating several bytes at a time, but because of a checksum bug at least the earlier devices, no one uses this extended communications, including SH, for fear of incompatibilities. So everything is done one byte at a time and a link is 8 bytes, so it can take from several minutes to a few hours to scan/setup a large network. This goes to SH's whole keep it quiet, don't replace switches due to firmware bugs, policy.

So in summary, for me it comes down to reliability vs. aesthetics and I am on the fence even with the ISY. If you can live with the looks of the UPB switches and keypads (with or without feedback), it definitely seems like the way to go. But you might also want to consider ZWave and Jetstream to fully round out your decision.

I would also like to hear more about UPB issues between vendors. Including the whole LED debate. I think depending on the vendor you get different LED colors.

 

[MikeB]

I'm not 100% sure but I think Web Mountain may be using Gen II firmware in their switches, you may want to check with them if you are concerned. The web mountain stuff is essentially SAI with their own customized firmware.

Web Mountain is definitely Gen2 now.

I'm not as concerned with noise in the house (no CFLs) as I am with the "delays" in gen 1. I've seen alot of posts that say things like "The reason I picked Insteon over UPB is the delay". Supposedly this one of the major improvements in gen 2.

CFLs aren't the only thing that can cause noise, and some sources can be from outside your home. Search around and you'll find some posts from UPB users that have noise coming from outside intermittently causing their devices to become useless. Though there has been some debate on Gen1 vs Gen2 regarding types of signal issues, I think the consensus is that Gen2 is much better at handling noisy situations - and I've seen many instances where Gen1 failed but Gen2 worked.

SAI's current devices are not Gen2, but they do incorporate the firmware feature to reduce the delay. I have some older SAI switches installed that do not have the adjustable delay, and I can't stand them - I can walk half-way into my office storage room before my light turns on. However, the newer UPB devices have a much better response time. I'm not sure if they're quite as quick as Insteon, but very close.

BTW, I don't believe Insteon light switches are a dual mesh like the marketing might imply. I'm pretty sure I read that the Insteon protocol was capable of supporting it... but the light switches were powerline only.

The Insteon spec is capable of supporting both powerline and RF communications, but currently most devices only support one or the other (except the AccessPoint, which bridges the 2 together).

The only wireless device currently available is the remotelinc.

Not true - the thermostat is RF as well.

Insteon's biggest issue with reliability is when a scene is activated. A device sends the group command, then goes through "group cleanup" where it queries each switch.

Group cleanup never causes issues for me, but what can be an annoyance for me is that if you press 2 non-load devices in the same box simultaneously (or very close to simultaneously) the commands may not make it through. I think this is a pretty major flaw as many people like to flip multiple switches at once. That being said, in real-world use I very rarely have a missed command. But, I can duplicate this problem easily. I haven't seen any similar issue with UPB.

 

[Digger]

Looks like UPB is the way to go.