Is detached garage a security exposure for home?

[Ira]

I'm looking at this from the perspective of an Elk M1G system, but maybe it's the same for others. Let's say I have a detached garage set up as a separate security zone, and the garage has input expanders, output expanders, a keypad, etc. The walls in the garage are open, so all security wiring is exposed. In addition, the wire going from the garage back to the data hub is exposed outside the garage where the conduit comes up out of the ground and has a "pull ell" before it goes into the garage.

If an intruder can get into the garage undetected, does having access to the security system components make my home any more vunerable? I will have sensors on the doors and windows, but someonw with a sawzall could cut a hole in the wall and crawl in if he wanted to bad enough. If it makes my home more vunerable, maybe I should have a motion detector covering the area near the security components?

If someone cut the wires leading into the garage (the wires going back to the data bus hub), will most systems treat that as an alarm situation?

Thanks,
Ira

 

[icellama21]

I think a better question is: Does an expander-missing or related trouble condition trigger an alarm when the system is armed?

I guess you can test this pretty easily yourself if you are careful. Another way is to use the rule system built into the Elk M1 to trigger an alarm if an expander is missing. And finally, you can run a NC trip wire in the conduit. A thief will likely cut it along with the data wire. Set it up as 24hr zone and you will get an alarm.

 

[Photon]

"In addition, the wire going from the garage back to the data hub is exposed outside the garage where the conduit comes up out of the ground and has a "pull ell" before it goes into the garage."

If a perp applies line voltage to the data bus, shouldn't we have an expectation the main panel will be fried as well as any other device on the bus? If the answer is yes, then the security of the house is compromised.

 

[pipeman]

If a perp applies line voltage to the data bus, shouldn't we have an expectation the main panel will be fried as well as any other device on the bus? If the answer is yes, then the security of the house is compromised.

That's a tough one to test :rockon:

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

"In addition, the wire going from the garage back to the data hub is exposed outside the garage where the conduit comes up out of the ground and has a "pull ell" before it goes into the garage."

If a perp applies line voltage to the data bus, shouldn't we have an expectation the main panel will be fried as well as any other device on the bus? If the answer is yes, then the security of the house is compromised.

Actually, if you were concerned about this, place security contacts inside the access case and alarm it as "instant".

 

[apostolakisl]

How about burying your conduit and brining it into the buildings below grade? You could also use iron pipe for conduit which would be a challenge to cut through without cutting wires and thus triggering the system. The elk does go into trouble mode immediately if you detach a keypad making all of the keypads still connected beep and sends a voice signal to the speaker and if you want will call your police/send emails/or whatever. As far as cutting a hole in the wall, well I guess you could put a motion detector in there. At some point you have to figure your house isn't the Louvre and nobody probably wants in that bad.

I have a detached third garage and brought my alarm wiring into it via a breezeway bridge that I ran a nice fat 2 inch conduit through while the house was under construction.

 

[signal15]

Put one or two motion detectors in there. They are like $10 each for the Bosch sensors, and if the walls are open, running wire will be easy.

But, I think you're right. Any wiring that a bad guy might potentially have access to is a problem. Assuming I was a motivated thief, and I knew your alarm system in your garage was connected to the main panel in the house, I would try to determine where I could gain access to the wires without setting off the alarm. So either the conduit popping up outside the garage (this should always come up inside through the slab), or by looking through a window and determining where I could cut a small hole in the outside wall to gain access to a wire. So here's where I need to make a decision. I can try shorting out power wires to disable anything on that circuit, but that's probably not going to do anything to the main panel except maybe trip the auto-reset breaker for that power circuit. And, if I guess wrong, and short out the input wires for a zone, then that would set off the alarm or put it in a trouble condition. I think the best way to disable the system would probably be to shove a TON of voltage through it. Not 120V line voltage, but something like 500,000 volts from a stun gun. Or my 200kV 8 farad capacitor bank that I made when I was in high school. That thing would vaporize an inch off 00 gauge wire. :rockon:

So, how motivated is your attacker to get your stuff? If you're just like the guy next door and he doesn't have an alarm, then I'd be an idiot to not just move on. But if you've got a safe filled with gold and 40 virgins, and I found out about it, then I might just be motivated enough to *REALLY* put some effort into discovering how things work and figuring out how to defeat it. Or, it could be that someone was out to get you, and I was an assassin that they were paying a ton of money to. FYI, part of my job is doing this for organizations that want to see if their security measures are adequate, it's mostly digital measures, but there are some physical security gigs also.

The reality of it is, no burglar is going to even spend the time unless they have a specific reason to be very highly motivated. They are going to either move on, or kick in the door and grab what they can before the cops arrive.

 

[Ira]

How about burying your conduit and brining it into the buildings below grade? You could also use iron pipe for conduit which would be a challenge to cut through without cutting wires and thus triggering the system. The elk does go into trouble mode immediately if you detach a keypad making all of the keypads still connected beep and sends a voice signal to the speaker and if you want will call your police/send emails/or whatever. As far as cutting a hole in the wall, well I guess you could put a motion detector in there. At some point you have to figure your house isn't the Louvre and nobody probably wants in that bad.

I have a detached third garage and brought my alarm wiring into it via a breezeway bridge that I ran a nice fat 2 inch conduit through while the house was under construction.

The garage is on a slab. I would have to dig out under the slab, then bust concrete inside the garage to bring it up thru the garage floor. That's way more work than I want to do. I could go down BSR's way of thinking and put a sensor inside the above ground "pull ell" that would trigger if the cover was removed. Maybe attach it to the ell and the cover with velcro or glue so it wouldn't be noticeable from the outside of the ell. There should be plenty of room in the ell to do that. Or...slip a 2" piece of metal conduit over the existing PVC conduit such that the bottom of the metal conduit is buried, and replace the PVC pull ell with a large metal junction box and put a tamper switch or sensor inside the junction box. Aren't there some kind of tamper switches that are small enough to fit inside of a 1" pull ell?

And if I really want to get serious...I could get an 8PST relay to sit next to the data bus hub and run the cable from the garage to the data bus hub thru the relay. If anything caused an alarm in the garage, the Elk could open the relay to isolate all of the garage components and keep someone from affecting the home system from the garage. Wonder what effect the relay would have on the reliability/stability of the connection between the garage components and the data bus hub.

Ira

 

[gatchel]

"In addition, the wire going from the garage back to the data hub is exposed outside the garage where the conduit comes up out of the ground and has a "pull ell" before it goes into the garage."

If a perp applies line voltage to the data bus, shouldn't we have an expectation the main panel will be fried as well as any other device on the bus? If the answer is yes, then the security of the house is compromised.

Actually, if you were concerned about this, place security contacts inside the access case and alarm it as "instant".

I could just cut the pipe with a saw or if it's plastic pipe I could those hand held PVC cutters. Snip!

I would core drill the foundation in the wall and dig out the ground and bring the conduit in this way. It much more work but if you are concerned it solves the problem.

It also looks a thousand times better from outside the building. Nice and clean looking with no pipes.

I also believe that if an expander goes offline due to the wire being cut or a relay breaking the circuit all zones on that expander go in to fault, don't they?

 

[mustangcoupe]

I could just cut the pipe with a saw or if it's plastic pipe I could those hand held PVC cutters. Snip!

I also believe that if an expander goes offline due to the wire being cut or a relay breaking the circuit all zones on that expander go in to fault, don't they?

So if they go into fault, wouldnt that mean that you alarm is now sounding, and dialed out to the CO?


so why not replace the ell with solid non removable 90's I think I may have also seen ell style without the removable plates. I know alittle tougher to wire, but more secure in the future

 

[cornutt]

For that matter, if you don't care about having access to the inside of the pull ell again, just glue it on with something like J-B Weld.

You could use a "red wire" to protect the conduit from being cut. Run a narrow-gauge pair through the conduit, and as best you can, glue it to the inside of the conduit in the exposed portion. Connect the pair together with an EOL resistor in the garage, and wire it to a zone at the main panel in the house. There is no sensor -- the wire itself is the sensor. If someone cuts the conduit, they cut through the wire and trip the zone. With access to the inside of the conduit, they might subsequently apply a high voltage to the wiring and fry the panel -- but by then it will have already dialed out.

 

[Digger]

In order for someone to "attack" the conduit or elbow they would have to know it is there (and what it is for). I would just hide it.

I forget where but I know I saw at someones house where they wanted to hide the sprinkler system clock from vandals and the weather. They built a box to put over it and affixed a water hose bib and put an old hose on it hung on the outside of the house. It looked completely natural but was not functional. I doubt anyone gave it a second thought.

My fathers cousin was a NYC Fireman. He hid his garage door opener exterior keypad in one of those old fire call boxes mounted on the outside of the garage.

Keep it simple (and have some fun with it) if you can.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

You could use a "red wire" to protect the conduit from being cut. Run a narrow-gauge pair through the conduit, and as best you can, glue it to the inside of the conduit in the exposed portion. Connect the pair together with an EOL resistor in the garage, and wire it to a zone at the main panel in the house. There is no sensor -- the wire itself is the sensor. If someone cuts the conduit, they cut through the wire and trip the zone. With access to the inside of the conduit, they might subsequently apply a high voltage to the wiring and fry the panel -- but by then it will have already dialed out.

Ooo, I like that idea! If you were really worried about it just implement cornutt's suggestion.

I really believe that they would try to access a cover before cutting into the conduit IMO. I just use standard magnetic security contacts and implemented an "L" bracket to hold the sensor, and attached a small magnet to the panel's cover. This is more typical for electrical panels and cable tv/phone access covers though you may be able to do this in a smaller junction box.

If the box was very small, I would probably glue a switch such as THIS on the side, near the front of the box, so it 'switches' when the front cover plate is removed.

 

[Ira]

Thanks for all of the good suggestions. I think for now I'm going to put a magentic sensor and/or a rollover/plunger sensor on the cover of the pull box to detect tampering, and use an unused pair of wires as a zone similar to what cornutt suggested to try to detect an attempt to cut the conduit (although it won't be quite as good as his idea because it won't be glued to the conduit to start with). Inside, I will put a motion detector that covers the area of the security panel and the wiring.

I'm starting another thread in the Elk subforum to see if anyone can tell me whether or not my idea of running the data bus cable thru a relay would work.

Thanks,
Ira