Couldn't have said it better... overall this does sound pretty good. I'm not a fan of the higher prices as this puts it into the same price bracket as some of the new Lutron products (and probably others), but I'm glad to see that the technology is not going to die.
Legrand Discontinues the ALC and PLC Lighting Systems!
- Thread starter sic0048
- Start date
charliebarns
Active Member
Lamp modules and a *nice* scene switch. the other one is ugly....
DrunkenLizard
Active Member
I know no one wants to pay more for anything (especially these days), but props on moving the manufacturing here to the US.
beelzerob
Senior Member
Oooooooooooooooooooh. That makes more sense. I was trying to figure out the symbolism involved in:
Genesis Chpt 13: So Abram went up from Egypt to the Negev, with his wife and everything he had, and Lot went with him.
Congrats, tony, and sounds like it's going to have a solid future.
Items that concern me:
1) Ongoing HAI/Elk Support. Without the OnQ name behind this - I wonder if HAI will continue to include this or any advancements in future firmware. Would be a great time to announce an official partnership with HAI/Elk.
Items that could use improvement.
1) Documentation. What do I need to buy? How do the parts fit together? This is very hard to find out.
2) The scene switch is just plane ugly. Needs backlighting options and custom engraved buttons.
1) Ongoing HAI/Elk Support. Without the OnQ name behind this - I wonder if HAI will continue to include this or any advancements in future firmware. Would be a great time to announce an official partnership with HAI/Elk.
Items that could use improvement.
1) Documentation. What do I need to buy? How do the parts fit together? This is very hard to find out.
2) The scene switch is just plane ugly. Needs backlighting options and custom engraved buttons.
TonyStewart
Active Member
We spoke with Jay (Owner) of HAI. They fully intend to support the line. HAI and OnQ did not part company as adversaries - quite the opposite.
Also Spanky (David Steele - President of Elk) and I have spent quite a bit of time on the phone. He is providing some good advice about manufacturing as we have a lot to learn.
I will log all requests for new products. All of the ideas so far are good. actually I think getting advice from this users in forum is a pretty good idea itself.
In my rather long response earlier I left off a major point.
WHY did OnQ really walk away from ALC?
The answer may surprise you. Here goes........
Legrand (Based in France) owns a number of brands worldwide. One of them is a automated lighting company called "Top Dog", which is primarly sold overseas. They have owned this company for some time.
They are merging all their companies together to use the strengths of each (all under the name of Legrand). The new RF lighting system will be announced soon under the Legrand (OnQ) label.
ALC had gotten little support for the last few years. A major reason for this was political. An older product line simply was not going to fare well with Legrand's plans to merge their brands together. And ALC was flying in the face of the principles at Top Dog.
Especially when you consider the fact that Vantage (another Legrand brand) competes in the upscale market and Top Dog competes in the same market as ALC with retrofit being possible with the RF line.
I know that most of you are not excited about another "No new wires" technology. But other Radio Frequency lines do sell in the existing home market where ALC does not.
Their soon to be released product line will do well in homes without automation. It is primarily a stand alone system and their hope is the Electriciancs will adopt it as a replacement for Lutron's line of RF products. While this is not the best news for automation, it does make good business sense for Legrand sales.
I have had my hands on this line, you will see it in the market place very soon.
Merry Christmas
TS
Also Spanky (David Steele - President of Elk) and I have spent quite a bit of time on the phone. He is providing some good advice about manufacturing as we have a lot to learn.
I will log all requests for new products. All of the ideas so far are good. actually I think getting advice from this users in forum is a pretty good idea itself.
In my rather long response earlier I left off a major point.
WHY did OnQ really walk away from ALC?
The answer may surprise you. Here goes........
Legrand (Based in France) owns a number of brands worldwide. One of them is a automated lighting company called "Top Dog", which is primarly sold overseas. They have owned this company for some time.
They are merging all their companies together to use the strengths of each (all under the name of Legrand). The new RF lighting system will be announced soon under the Legrand (OnQ) label.
ALC had gotten little support for the last few years. A major reason for this was political. An older product line simply was not going to fare well with Legrand's plans to merge their brands together. And ALC was flying in the face of the principles at Top Dog.
Especially when you consider the fact that Vantage (another Legrand brand) competes in the upscale market and Top Dog competes in the same market as ALC with retrofit being possible with the RF line.
I know that most of you are not excited about another "No new wires" technology. But other Radio Frequency lines do sell in the existing home market where ALC does not.
Their soon to be released product line will do well in homes without automation. It is primarily a stand alone system and their hope is the Electriciancs will adopt it as a replacement for Lutron's line of RF products. While this is not the best news for automation, it does make good business sense for Legrand sales.
I have had my hands on this line, you will see it in the market place very soon.
Merry Christmas
TS
TonyStewart
Active Member
Thanks
Currently 3000 lbs of molds for the plastics are still in China. Getting them to the U.S. is a bit of a pain. After that transition, the bulk of loose ends will be behind us. Initially OnQ was going to do this ahead of time, but they did not!
Some patience while this gets worked out is appreciated.
TS
TonyStewart
Active Member
You can't put the : in a web name, so WWW.Genesis13lighting.com was a compromise.
beelzerob
Senior Member
What do you think the chances are of getting a little technical help with the dimmers then, now that I can actually talk to someone in charge? I've tried literally since April (I've logged every call) to get help figuring out why the extended dimmer RS232 protocol command doesn't seem to work for me (and thus, for any CQC user). I kept getting a "we'll have an engineer call you" promise, but no joy. I'm not even saying the command is broken, I'm just saying I can't decipher from the protocol doc nor trial and error what the correct bytes would be.
I don't expect quick fixes or anything like that...just wondering how deep your guy's expertise goes.
As far as a requested device....the only situation that ALC does not solve for me, that I wish it did, is my whole-house fan. Its currently controlled by a 3-position mechanical knob...Off, Low, and High. Anyway, I know that's unlikely to be a product anytime soon due to its very low usefulness...but I'm just sayin'...
I don't expect quick fixes or anything like that...just wondering how deep your guy's expertise goes.
As far as a requested device....the only situation that ALC does not solve for me, that I wish it did, is my whole-house fan. Its currently controlled by a 3-position mechanical knob...Off, Low, and High. Anyway, I know that's unlikely to be a product anytime soon due to its very low usefulness...but I'm just sayin'...
Proprietary wiring is somewhat of a misnomer. It is 2x18 shielded and 2x22. The 18 carries the power and the 22 the control. CAT5 will work, but is not supported by Crestron. Lutron will work also, but again not supported.
Hey, I did my best to steer some of you towards Lutron, but for some reason you were afraid of the "proprietary" wiring. I wish you well.
TonyStewart
Active Member
Like I mentioned earlier, the original Engineers are nearby. In addition we now own all the test equipment and test jigs along with all developers tools. Our hands on experience is pretty extensive as well. But, none of us have any experience with CQC. I would love to learn more. Will they send us what is needed to merge the two systems together?
Of course I would say that we have senior knowledge on the ALC line. I myself have installed almost 800 ALC devices this year alone. Our offices were built in 2006 and are wired with 95% ALC, 4%UPB nd 1%PLC (X-10). We have also tested Zigby and Zwave as well. Our offices are wired with over a mile of AC wiring with 3-phase AC making it a real good test environment. And both Anthony and my home are similar to our office and warehouse.
In summary, issues like CQC pose both a challenge and an opportunity. Our expansion plans are to integrate with a number of other systems and products first, then to build new technology/products after that.
We are currently working towards integrating several products into the line and would love to add CQC.
As far as controlling your whole house fan directly from any type wall switch, that will be a challenge. Here is why....
The technology used inside most automated wall switches centers around a device called a Triac. A triac is commonly found in dimmers (600-1000watts) and 900-1000 watt Non-dimmers (7-8 AMPS) A triac does not behave well with inductive loads like fan motors. The bigger the fan motor, the bigger the problem. ALC and almost all other wall switch technologies (UPB, Insteon, PLC, Zigby, Zwave) use triacs. There is simply no replacement for the triac without making the switch bigger than will fit inside a single gang wall box. Some proprietary lighting systems use a technology called an SCR but they will not fit inside a wall switch and cost a lot more.
Relays rated at 15 amps are also affected by inductive loads and can make noise or overheat. Until the seminconductor industry invents some new load handling technology (small in size and at an affordable price), then all manufacturers are pretty much stuck.
However, there are two products that will control heavy loads everytime.
Use an ALC relay wall switch to trigger an Elk-9200 load controller with it's 120VAC output, or an HAI 72a00-1 load control (trigger it with 12VDC). The Elk-9200 can be located right at the whole house fan motor and offers the advantage of being easliy interfaced into the AC load wiring already ran to the fan motor from the ALC switch. Neither choice will provide 3 speeds, that would take 3 total relays and some non-L wiring.
Feel free to ask these kind of questions anytime, just note that I don't check in on the forums very often. So a phone call or email may be a better way to reach us.
-----------------------------------
Merry Christmas
TS
Help me get our hands on a sample CQC system and I promise to dig in deep.
TonyStewart
Active Member
Hey Charlie
We already have some ideas for linking to a 3rd parties LCD based scene switch.
The lamp module is a bit sloppier as it would reguire a way to get the control wiring (cat 5) to the lamp module, making the wiring connections outside the wall plate. Do you have any ideas about how best to get the control wiring to the lamp module?
TS
TonyStewart
Active Member
Space is the issue here. Take apart an ALC switch and you will find little room inside. However, this suggestion is worth pursuing. It will take time, but I am adding this to the list wish.
TS
TonyStewart
Active Member
For those of you who have been active in this forum or any of the previous ones, We will price protect you. Call me or Anthony and provide your user name and we will help you as best we can. Can't promise this to everyone and the amount we can help out does have some restrictions, but if you have made an entry on Coccontech, we will help you out. That means all of you, even those who have not been a fan of us or ALC.
If you already have good supplier like automated outlet, then I will pass along the savings to them. This will take a little more administration, but we don't want to take any business away from another supplier.
Merry Christmas from the Stewarts
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