Legrand Discontinues the ALC and PLC Lighting Systems!

[TonyStewart]

FYI
Not having the luxury to have worked with many of you firsthand, I could easily overlook some serious talent posting on this board. But I do know some of the recent posters first hand. And they are some people I really respect. Glenn can offer a lot to this board. If nothing else, the ALC postings have flushed out some real veterans who have a lot to add. Keep checking the board guys (Glenn, Gary, Shannon), your advice will be greatly appreciated. If I left any of Steve Smith's dream team off, chime in.

TS

 

[Shannon G]

My old account wouldnt work so I had to add this one...
Ive read the posts and have conversed with Gary about the topics.. WE decided one person was left out!

How about Rob Rundy? He did some work before the Hockey playoffs game .
And next time we cant place the diet coke in front of the "fat guy" haha

THOSE were some of the best times working on Steves Project..The compassion each and everyone had for Steve and his family goes well beyond the product line being discussed.

I learned sooo much more from those trips (aside from ALC switches.)

I hope Glen reads this post....
My 8 hr van trips with Gary was really enjoyable (especially one trip during a hurricane)...I have found a life long friend in everyone associated with the project and value the opinon of all of them.


We should plan a road trip soon!!

Maybe we can get Ryan to plan us one?

Shannon

Thanks for the memories...

 

[TonyStewart]

THOSE were some of the best times working on Steves Project..The compassion each and everyone had for Steve and his family goes well beyond the product line being discussed.

[/quote]

I email Steve often and Kim and I have visited with him several times. Too bad he is 6 hours away. He had a lightning surge that took out a few power supplies, so I drove up and fixed them. Elk Products and OnQ provided all material once again.

Occasionally I call him. Although he has not been able to speak for several years, His nurse puts it on speaker phone and he responds using his foot to move his body (kind of like nodding). I am sure that he would love to hear from you guys more often. Call and I will share all his contact info if you don't already have it.

His son Matthew is almost grown and is a top notch hunter (following in Steve's footsteps). Did you know that Steve did a TV show about hunting for a while? When Kim and I last visited he used the system we installed to pick on his nurse. He stays in that little room off of the equipment closet and has 4 monitors going all at once. A screen for his email, one for cameras, one for his automation software (and TV channels that we change using Serial control to his satellite dish) and another for his text to speech system.

Talk about leaving somebody off of my post, what about Elk Product's software genius Chris Whitworth (Forgive me Chris, Rob and others). Steve used the custom software that Chris wrote to turn off the lights in each room the nurse entered (he can see her on the cameras we installed). Apparently he does this often as she screamed at him! He still has that sharp wit and sense of humor.

The automation system is a integral part of his life. You guys really should plan to drop in on him if ever in the area. Actually, why don't we put together a surprise trip to visit him (there's your road trip). I can arrange the best time with Lynn. The team getting together again would be nice, although Glenn driving from Missouri to NC again would be a great sacrifice for him (which he did without question a number of times). We all had fun while doing his install and Steve got something that I am convinced is adding time to his life.

We were set to do another project locally here in Greenville SC. A team of us wired the home, but that gentlemen passed away 6 months after diagnosis. Six months is about the average life span from diagnosis to death. I am convinced that Steve continues for two reasons.

1. Our Lord uses him to send hope to the many who have heard of his story. Let's face it, being totally paralyzed and without speech is a reason to give up. If you can't even tell your family you love them, why live? Worse yet, Lou Gehrig''s (ALS) does not stop his body from feeling pain or other sensations. As such, when someone places an ALS patient into a chair or bed, they can't tell anyone that the position is painful or uncomfortable. They can't tell you of an itch or to move them into a more comfortable position. What a terrible desease! There are many nights that ALS patients suffer through the night in an uncomfortable position that they can't change.

Since Steve's project I have been asked to speak to a number of ALS or MD organizations and groups. I always tell of Steve's Dream team. You guys were all a part of something that has given hope to many others like Steve. Once the project won the Techhome Mark of Excellence Awared, I began to get and continue to get calls from integrators all across the US and Canada who subsequently did installs for family members of friends. All stemming from Steve's story. And I have taught a number of classes using Steve's design as a basis.

Unfortunately I have seen way too many people succumb to this desease quickly. What I never expected was that I would be meeting so many ALS patients and their families. While I would not trade this for anything, it often plays heavy on my heart. I can tell you some terrible stories, but I can also tell of some times when automation improved the quality of life for some of them. Few can afford all that we installed for Steve (all material was donated by some wonderful manufacturers). But in smaller ways, many lives have been touched by what was done for Steve.

Instead of using complicated and expensive gear like crestron, I chose to use more down to earth and affordable products. None of which is proprietary in nature and all of which was within the price range of ALS victims and all of which could be installed by most integrators or DIY'ers with little training. This strategy never made me any money, You see this was never about money. I knew from Steve's first call for assistance that a bigger goal was ahead and that a business case did not figure in at all.

With many installs going in across the United States that I never hear about, what we started gets its reward for us in other ways. In essence, that was the goal the Lord God wanted for us to achieve, not for any of us to make any money. Steve was the basis for hope for many others none of us will ever know of. And the seeds you all planted will be used for a long time. Thanks!

From recent comments I know that some of you don't believe that money does not drive me, but it does not and never has. I would offer that this simple fact has created financial success for me that cash never could. Does that make sense to some of you? I have never measured anything with dollars as a guide and never will.

2. The second reason Steve outlasts the others is not related to medical treatment. Actually, there is no treatment. In fact he has nearly died a couple of times since and was placed into the hospital numerous times. Using home automation Steve can change the channels on his TV, change the music he listens too (in any room), operate lights, thermostats, see inside and outside the home. Using the stored voices we had a local DJ create and by using text to speech, he can carry on conversations that are meaningful. He can even answer the door and telephone using stored voices.

When last there, he talked as much as I did. He had even created a video slideshow, all with only the use of his feet and a mouse. One day even his feet will no longer move, but he can then use the eye response software and PC and continue on. His eyes will become move the mouse, just like his feet do now!

Simply put a great mind and a wonderful person is trapped inside a helpless and painful body. But he can still interact with his environment and tell his family he loves them. All because of home automation and a team that only the creator of the universe himself put together. He continues because he is meaningful, productive and can interact. Thus, he wants to continue!

I challenge all of you readers to think about using your skills to improve the life of a paralyzed person in your area. All of us on Steve's dream team are there to consult. The DIY'er may just be the best resource in this mission as profit and payment for labor is not as much of a consideration for the DIY'er

God Bless

TS

 

[Herdfan]

And until another brand comes along ALC will have a home in these conversions for a long time. Actually, that one thing should satisfy your concern over the future of ALC.

Lutron is here now and can use CAT5 wiring.

 

[TonyStewart]

Good! How does it wire? Does the electrican still run high voltage like he always has and once installed can it be replaced with non automated switches from Lowes?

 

[TonyStewart]

We had our meeting with yet another American PCB assembly house yesterday. This one located in SC. This one promises to have a faster turn around time but no pricing advantages.

Many of the US sources are union based and the prices as such are much higher than off-shore. I am getting a taste of why off shore resources are so popular! That's sad!

We will still be going forward with US sources, and are waiting on our molds for the plastic housings to arrive on a slow boat from China.

There should be no delay in ordering product if you need it. Note however that several distributors are placing orders, with one of the biggest shipments going to a distributor in Mexico.

TS

 

[Herdfan]

Good! How does it wire? Does the electrican still run high voltage like he always has and once installed can it be replaced with non automated switches from Lowes?

Seriously???

I don't know if you are really that uninformed about what products exist in the lighting automation marketplace or if you just want to spread FUD about alternative products.

Yes, Lutron makes a product that uses a non-conventional wiring approach. Loads are wired back to centralized dimming/switching cabinets and controlled by keypads. This is a Lutron 8 Series.

Lutron also makes 2 localized products, one wired and one wireless, based off their Maestro dimmer. It looks and functions very similar to the one found in Home Depot/Lowes, but is controlled by a Lutron processor.

In the case of the wired Maestro, it is wired back to a 4 Series Processor and can be operated locally or by a keypad connected to the processor. Read more about it here:
http://www.lutron.com/hwi/pdfs/SpecSubmittal/048-012a.pdf

And while not recommended, both wired Maestro dimmers and Homeworks keypads can use CAT5 wiring. Just like ALC.

Here is an overview of the 4 Series product: http://www.lutron.com/Homeworks/4series_sys.asp?s=&t=
See those in-wall dimmers and switches???

One other nice feature is that if you have a properly equipped processor, you can add a repeater and add wireless devices as well. This works great if you are doing a large remodel. Use wired devices where the walls are open or can be fished, then add wireless devices to the rest. It will all work as a seamless system.
Plus there are additional wireless devices that most people will want anyway such as lamp dimmers, wireless tabletop keypads and the garage door controller. I can't tell you how much WAF there is in the fact that she can turn on light form the car and never has to walk into a dark house.

So stop the FUD!!

 

[beelzerob]

Ok Tony, time to give the new management a test drive.... Who/Where do I contact with a technical support issue?

I'm trying to set the extended ramp rate in my dimmers via the RS232 protocol. I am sending the exact bytes that Bill indicated on the 3rd page of posts of this thread...but all I get back from the controller is NAK.

This is the first 6-byte command I've tried sending...all of the 4-byte commands worked fine. Dunno if that matters.

Anyway, please let me know who to contact about this. thanks.

 

[TonyStewart]

Ok Tony, time to give the new management a test drive.... Who/Where do I contact with a technical support issue?

I'm trying to set the extended ramp rate in my dimmers via the RS232 protocol. I am sending the exact bytes that Bill indicated on the 3rd page of posts of this thread...but all I get back from the controller is NAK.

This is the first 6-byte command I've tried sending...all of the 4-byte commands worked fine. Dunno if that matters.

Anyway, please let me know who to contact about this. thanks.

We currently have a test setup with the stand along lighting controller in addition to HAI, OnQ and Elk controllers connected to almost 100 ALC switches. However we are still adding controllers and other configurations as demand dictates. While we don't yet have ALL controllers connected, we are adding things in proportion to the demand and popularity.

We are your contact although your issue is not one I have heard before. As such, I would need to recreate the same setup and test it thoroughly. Call me and let's discuss us getting a mock up of your exact system here.

I have spoken with the software guru for the product this morning on some future enhancements and can always get his advice. Of course he is far more familiar with interfacing the products to the controllers they made interfaces for. Anything outside of that would fall into a wish list that would need to be prioritized.

The firmware has not needed any changes for a few years and we have no plans to get into making source code changes for some time. The next product you will see is being planned and some design study is now in place, but it will not address your issue.

I admit that I am not smart enough on CQC to offer much but am interested into exploring that market in the future.

God Bless
TS

 

[TonyStewart]

Good! How does it wire? Does the electrican still run high voltage like he always has and once installed can it be replaced with non automated switches from Lowes?

Seriously???

So stop the FUD!!

Yes seriously!
Currently we are in the final stages of rolling out a new lighting training program. We are launching it in concert with PCS and will be on the road (and in our classroom) teaching UPB for existing construction and ALC for new. We are not as prejudiced as you suggest.

As for Lutron, I have the Radio Ray and another of the Lutron systems you discussed here and had them installed for a period of time. Today, they are in boxes along with Litetouch, Vantage, Centralyte, Zigbee, Litetouch PLC system and even CEBus systems (and I left several off the list). All of which were installed and thourougly tested. Some we even installed and others we simply did not like for one reason or another.

Some (most) were wonderful products. But, we continue to believe that proprietary wiring is a dangerous business case. For the DIY'er it's a different issue, you folks can make anything work in any environment. But for the homeowner, they simply want lights that works and reduced wall clutter. It's only when they try to sell their homes that the strategy taken by several fine names making lighting bites them. And of course you or homeowners can also be affected by a brand giving up and throwing in the towel (CEBus had over 14 million invested when they quit and AMP had over 100 million).

Professional installers of the nicer systems like Litetouch and Vantage normally are large enough to keep ample replacement stock and service vehicles and support their market well (I hope). But, the homeowners rarely buy because of the wiring strategy, they buy because of the look of the walls! Only later do they revisit this choice.

For me, if you can't go to Lowes and buy switches to put the home back to standard lighting, then there is an issue! I can't convince some people of that but I can share some phone numbers of clients who only realized the disadvantages of proprietary lighting once it was too late!

Of course I am biased toward ALC, the concept of a lighting product that could be automated and also replaced with conventional non automated lighting switches was my idea while I was consulting with the original creator AMP (now TYCO and the one time parent company of OnQ) in 1996.

And if you MUST install pretty scene switches, ALC can talk to most any on the market. Although be careful when creating such a hybrid system as you may easily lose the non proprietary nature I do so love and preach about!

I know of other brands that meet the same requirements, but cost 3 times as much.

Lutron will probably weather the economic storm and has a great product, it's just not my pick. Not for functional reasons (although some exist), but more for common sense reasons.

My advice comes not from bias but from the school of hard knocks and burning and learning!

By the way, what does FUD mean?

God Bless
TS

 

[beelzerob]

By the way, what does FUD mean?

God Bless
TS

Heh...I was wondering that too, though I could guess given its context.

Ok, I'll try calling tomorrow...I've got the day off. My system is really very simple...about 6 controlled lights, the controller, and the distribution panel...that's it.

The CQC aspect of this isn't a factor, really. CQC is just one other "source" that talks to the ALC lighting controller via the RS232 protocol. So, it's the same as all of the other things that would talk to the controller like that.

I'll check tonight..it seems like I remember having trouble QUERYING the extended ramp rate also, which would be another 6 byte command. Is it possible I have an old firmware controller?

 

[jmark71]

FUD - not as 'dirty' as you might be imagining...

F ear
U ncertainty
D oubt

 

[Herdfan]

As for Lutron, I have the Radio Ray

Some (most) were wonderful products. But, we continue to believe that proprietary wiring is a dangerous business case.

Of course I am biased toward ALC, the concept of a lighting product that could be automated and also replaced with conventional non automated lighting switches

By the way, what does FUD mean?

First, its RadioRA. The RA name comes from the sun god RA! The second generation product will be out soon and will most likely become the retrotfit standard as it will be cheaper and more capable than the original. Price will be similar to ALC pricing and have the benefit of a company the has been in business since the 50's. Check it out: http://radiora2.lutron.com/

I still can't grasp why you insist all Lutron products involve non-standard wiring? I won't use the term "proprietary" because that implies that one you install a Lutron system, you are stuck with it. Even if you install a non-standard wired Lutron system and decide to rip it out for some reason, it can be easily replaced by the non-standard systems from Crestron, Vantage or Litetouch. So while it may be non-standard, it is not proprietary.

Again, Lutron makes 3 basic lighing systems:

8 Series - mainly uses non-standard wiring, but can comunicate with wired dimmers/switches

4 Series - mainly uses wired Maestros. Once installed, it can be replaced with regular old $0.69 switches from HD/Lowes.

Wireless - just like 4 Series, but dimmers/keypads communicate wirelessly vs wired.

So I really don't get what you don't seem to understand.

As to FUD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt

I have some pictures of a Lutron Wired Maestro, but I need to shrink them to upload. It looks remarkably like an ALC dimmer. It has two wires coming out of the top than allow for control wiring over top of the box. It also has terminals for Hot, Neutral (switch only, dimmers don't require a neutral), Common (for multi-way circuits) and a Ground. Just like a regular ole dimmer.

 

[sic0048]

Not to drag this thread off topic, but I did a quick look at the Lutron Series 4. Looks really good, but I believe the processor is pretty darn expensive, correct? For a DIYer, convincing the wife to spend 1-2k on a lighting processor isn't going to fly. I realize that isn't the market Lutron is trying to reach for, just my reality.

In the end, I think competition is good for the consumer. So I hope for more lighting systems like this.

 

[TonyStewart]

By the way, what does FUD mean?

God Bless
TS

Heh...I was wondering that too, though I could guess given its context.

Ok, I'll try calling tomorrow...I've got the day off. My system is really very simple...about 6 controlled lights, the controller, and the distribution panel...that's it.

The CQC aspect of this isn't a factor, really. CQC is just one other "source" that talks to the ALC lighting controller via the RS232 protocol. So, it's the same as all of the other things that would talk to the controller like that.

I'll check tonight..it seems like I remember having trouble QUERYING the extended ramp rate also, which would be another 6 byte command. Is it possible I have an old firmware controller?

When you say query, do you mean from your PC via serial to the serial port add on board for the lighting controller, or by sending ALC protocol/commands down the polling loop directly to the lighting controller?

It will be a bit of a learning curve for us. Talking directly to the ALC devices via the data on the comm bus is simply something we have not had to do. That's both good and bad. Good becasue it has not been a need, bad because a lot of the horsepower is as yet untouched. I am not sure how many other lighting manufacturers have opened up their protocol like OnQ did, maybe others choose not to because of the support it would take.

This just may be why OnQ took so long to come back to such questions as yours. The same type issues are now in my head. How many sales versus how much time involved?

All that said, this is on our list and as such it now has a place in the list of things to achieve. When? No promises.

Later
TS