Likes and Dislikes

[LightenUP]

The Control 4 Zigbee stuff any good?

I recently visited a home owner that had an approximate $15,000 system and he raves its so simple even he can add devices.

I know the system may not be able to handle the advanced automation that you all seem to be doing but for a small guy who is only interested in lighting and a few appliances, is it viable and are their controllers for it other than windows based?

Do any of you think a windows program like Homeseer is the most dependable way to have timed events.

 

[shenandoah75]

In short, you'll get yes and no answers to your question on homeseer/windows

Many here swear that their servers runnning windows and HA software and that they are rock solid.

However, in my opinion, windows and dependable do not belong in the same sentence, that includes every release of windoze as i've used them all back to 3.11 Too many blue screens, conflicts, etc over the years. It may be a necessary evil in the business world, but not at home.


If you want reliability, you want to use a hardware based solution (elk / hai). Elk has a huge following here and it is rock solid. I don't need to defrag, reboot, reinstall, nothing. Been up and running for over a year... hardly any power consumption and the only time i turn it off is when i add on to the system... A few hundred for a stable and upgradable platform is nothing if you're looking at thousands for lighting alone. Your PC crashed while your gone, forget your timed events running at all... (and you're liable to come home to a dead lawn, a green pool, etc). If you're timing your lighting to make it look your home, forget that too

FYI - There is a hybrid approach advocated by many here which used the hardware based solution as a fallback if the pc should crash for the very reasons above. Which gives you redunacy... But unless you plan on recoding all your homeseer rules into an Elk rule engine, etc, you're still loseing on te reliability front from a high level... And if you do that, why do you need the PC at all

my take - enjoy...

-brad

 

[Ranger Digital]

I concur with Shen. The backbone should be hardware, not software. Use the software for a fancy front end but the backone/backend, IMO, shouldnt be windows based. Rock solid performance from Elk and HAI both. I personally use On-q which is HAI oem'd. Couldnt be happier and it NEVER not works. Can I say the same about ANYTHING windows based? Sure, I could, but i would be lying.

Hardware hardare HARDWARE!

 

[nightwalker]

While i agree that in a perfect world hardware is probably better, i have an omni pro 2 controller installed but it does have it's limitations. I've been using HomeSeer for 4 years now and while i agree that it's been a rocky road at times, i've found that a lot of it has been user error. Three months ago i moved the HomeSeer system to a dedicated machine, meaning it does nothing but home automation chores. So far i've not had to even reboot it yet. Most of my problems seemed to be me making the home automation server do double duty as my desktop. Once it was running just HomeSeer and associated plugins it's been flawless.

 

[twilo123]

for what it's worth i think control4 originally ran on linux but can now also be ported to Vista. i have not used it but that is what i have read on it. basically the difference between this type of HA and the hardware systems (other than what was already said) is that you typically encompass audio/video along with the HA in 1 unit. lifeware is another company doing this kind of setup. the hardware based systems are definitely rock solid like everyone else is saying but they typically serve a particular purpose well and are much harder to develop new products for. a pc is a pc which is just hardware like the other hardware systems. components can fail over time but usually they are fine to run 24/7. The O/S is a main concern, especially with windows but 1 - many windows HA systems are basing on Vista which doesn't necessarily run the same code as XP hence viruses tend to need to be rewritten for this O/S and it hasn't gone as mainstream as XP yet so there are not as many of them available, 2 - these HA/Media machines are typically locked down and are not used for general internet & email access which is how most viruses spread.

what ends up happening is that the problems associated with these boxes come from the actual coding of the HA system (program code, drivers, etc.) and how it interfaces with the O/S. many times a new release ends up being pushed about without the best of testing and the market becomes the guiniea pig.

i personally run a pc just to play around with controlthink's software however i use a linux appliance for basic z-wave control/access (intranet/internet/cellular control & access, scheduling, alerts, associations, etc.) along with a handheld for in home use. the appliance runs at 7w and i have not had a problem in over 6 months of using it so far.

btw - all of the hardware systems listed use software with code at the core whether it's some assembly language, specialized registers, O/S, etc. some may be proprietary and some may use mainstream types like windows, linux, etc. it's just that 90% of the world isn't really interested in learning the underlying product to bother creating viruses or circumventing the system.

 

[upstatemike]

- many windows HA systems are basing on Vista which doesn't necessarily run the same code as XP hence viruses tend to need to be rewritten for this O/S and it hasn't gone as mainstream as XP yet so there are not as many of them available

I thought viruses were the one thing that Vista was specifically designed to be backward compatible with.

 

[Rupp]

- many windows HA systems are basing on Vista which doesn't necessarily run the same code as XP hence viruses tend to need to be rewritten for this O/S and it hasn't gone as mainstream as XP yet so there are not as many of them available

I thought viruses were the one thing that Vista was specifically designed to be backward compatible with.

Vista is backwardly compatible with Virus's. It's also bloated with "fluff" that has no place on an automation server. Embedded XP on dedicated hardware, on the other hand, is as rock solid as platforms get and still remain somewhat upgradeable. Where most users see blue screens is normally attempting to load a new piece of hardware that didn't install correctly. I see it day in and day out where users load many software packages and add-ons with out knowing the consequences. Save yourself some money and get a small form factor PC that uses less power and dedicate it to your automation services and you'll be set. The HomeTroller is such a device that uses low power and is designed to do HA and HA only and can be neatly tucked away in the closet.

 

[upstatemike]

I was headed down the Hometroller path until recently but two issues stopped me:

1- I have never been able to get Homeseer to run for more than a few days without locking up. This could certainly be due to not having a "clean" system to run it on but until I figure out for sure where the instability is coming from, I am not going to move forward with Homeseer.

2- There has been so much whining and bickering around the Insteon plugin that I have decided not to use Homeseer for any lighting control. Even if the current plugin gets fixed, there will be no way to manage links in Homeseer except the ones to the Homeseer PLM. This means that whatever tool I use to manage my other links will always be in contention with Homeseer with respect to the link tables in each individual device. Nobody has yet described even a potential future plan for managing both Homeseer links and individual device links (ContoLincs etc.) in a way where there is no risk of one system overwriting the links created by the other.

After pursuing new strategies and technologies over the past two years, I have over the past couple of weeks returned my focus to Stargate as the cental player in my system and discovered that this old thing is not only more reliable, it is just plain more fun to work with!

 

[Rupp]

I was headed down the Hometroller path until recently but two issues stopped me:

1- I have never been able to get Homeseer to run for more than a few days without locking up. This could certainly be due to not having a "clean" system to run it on but until I figure out for sure where the instability is coming from, I am not going to move forward with Homeseer.

2- There has been so much whining and bickering around the Insteon plugin that I have decided not to use Homeseer for any lighting control. Even if the current plugin gets fixed, there will be no way to manage links in Homeseer except the ones to the Homeseer PLM. This means that whatever tool I use to manage my other links will always be in contention with Homeseer with respect to the link tables in each individual device. Nobody has yet described even a potential future plan for managing both Homeseer links and individual device links (ContoLincs etc.) in a way where there is no risk of one system overwriting the links created by the other.

After pursuing new strategies and technologies over the past two years, I have over the past couple of weeks returned my focus to Stargate as the cental player in my system and discovered that this old thing is not only more reliable, it is just plain more fun to work with!

Were you running HomeSeer on a dedicated server or a shared server? There have been very good reviews of the HomeTroller and its stability. Most of the users using this path are either using Z-Wave and/or UPB.
This is the very reason I'm staying as far from Insteon as possible. With the hardware failures and firmware changes I'm not impressed with this technology. I have 4 Insteon devices left and they are all running in X10 mode. I would never consider adding Insteon to my HA platform if you wanted to use "stable" as a description in your automation setup.

 

[jhimmel]

I was headed down the Hometroller path until recently but two issues stopped me:

1- I have never been able to get Homeseer to run for more than a few days without locking up. This could certainly be due to not having a "clean" system to run it on but until I figure out for sure where the instability is coming from, I am not going to move forward with Homeseer.

2- There has been so much whining and bickering around the Insteon plugin that I have decided not to use Homeseer for any lighting control. Even if the current plugin gets fixed, there will be no way to manage links in Homeseer except the ones to the Homeseer PLM. This means that whatever tool I use to manage my other links will always be in contention with Homeseer with respect to the link tables in each individual device. Nobody has yet described even a potential future plan for managing both Homeseer links and individual device links (ContoLincs etc.) in a way where there is no risk of one system overwriting the links created by the other.

After pursuing new strategies and technologies over the past two years, I have over the past couple of weeks returned my focus to Stargate as the cental player in my system and discovered that this old thing is not only more reliable, it is just plain more fun to work with!

Homeseer locking up is very strange. I have run it for years and it has been absolutely solid. However, I do use a PC that is dedicated to Homeseer and my surveillance cameras -exclusively-. This also addresses some of the other comments here. XP, with a small handful of dedicated apps, works just fine. XP does not crash on its own for no reason. If you build the PC with proven components, and install only well written applications and leave the machine dedicated to those only - it can be absolutely reliable. I even have a hot-swap disk mirror system on mine. It survives even a HD hardware failure without even blinking.

I can understand completely your comments about the Insteon plugin. Those that moved over to the PLM have had a lot of problems. I'll not get into the finger pointing here - I'll leave that for others to argue. The thing is, v1 of the plugin coupled with the PLC/SDM combo has been perfectly reliable for me. It just works. I do have a clean Insteon network and have done diligence in minimizing and/or eliminating any noise issues, but it is all but flawless in executing commands and monitoring my Insteon network. You are right about link management though - I had to do all of mine manually, walking around back and forth around the house like a nut. The swap device feature of the plugin sure comes in handy when it comes to Insteon though.

One last thing about Homeseer and Insteon. I've been a pretty big fan of Homeseer, but...
It seems to me that the Insteon support has become less than enthusiastic. I'm not saying I blame them - Smarthome has really made things difficult. The hardware and and firmware issues seem to never end. It does bother me though when I see 10 posts in a thread that dates back to November 23rd titled "Where is Version .10 of the PLM plugin?" on the Homeseer forums, without a single response from anyone involved with Homeseer or the plugin. There is a "sticky" thread entitled "PLM Beta - .10 *NEW*", but no one can seem to find that version of the PLM plugin, and questions about it seem to be ignored. It's a shame.

 

[upstatemike]

Were you running HomeSeer on a dedicated server or a shared server? There have been very good reviews of the HomeTroller and its stability. Most of the users using this path are either using Z-Wave and/or UPB.

Yes it is dedicated to Homeseer. I'm pretty sure the problem comes from the Stargate Plugin. My Stargate is a very busy machine and I think over time the plugin gets overwhelmed. The Stargate plugin is also not being aggressively improved and as far as I know, no new features or bug fixes are planned.

I looked at the feasibility of using Z-Wave in a large deployment. I found questions about scene class support by some brands, questions about total number of switches supported by some brands, questions about support for multiple switches in N-way configurations by some brands, questions about centrally managing inaccessible devices without visiting the actual device with some brands.... too many questions to be worth making a change.

If the GEN II feature set for UPB had been in place 2 years ago I would almost certainly be using UPB now. Unfortunately GEN II did not come with the kind of price cut that would be required for me to be able to abandon my existing investment to switch over. I have a lot of money invested in HS software, plugins, modems, etc. but not as much as I have invested in Insteon.

 

[upstatemike]

One last thing about Homeseer and Insteon. I've been a pretty big fan of Homeseer, but...
It seems to me that the Insteon support has become less than enthusiastic. I'm not saying I blame them - Smarthome has really made things difficult. The hardware and and firmware issues seem to never end. It does bother me though when I see 10 posts in a thread that dates back to November 23rd titled "Where is Version .10 of the PLM plugin?" on the Homeseer forums, without a single response from anyone involved with Homeseer or the plugin. There is a "sticky" thread entitled "PLM Beta - .10 *NEW*", but no one can seem to find that version of the PLM plugin, and questions about it seem to be ignored. It's a shame.

Yes it is a shame but it is not worth stressing over. In order to proceed Homeseer wants some things from SmartHome that are never going to happen or that will be only partially provided, poorly, at some very distant point in the future. And even if they get the PLM plugin working it doesn't solve the problem of how to keep the tool used to manage the rest of your links from overwiting links made by the Homeseer plugin (or vice versa). So we have a lot of folks arguing to bring about actions from SmartHome that are not likely to happen and that would not result in something useable anyway. The only way Homeseer can truly integrate with Insteon is to either provide a full link management solution and become the only tool for manaing your Insteon links (not the business they want to be in) OR they could stop trying to write plugins to the PLM and instead write one to the ISY-26 or PowerHome or some other tool that already handles the link management.

So I have dropped any hopes of Homeseer controlling Insteon and am just using my Stargate to control my lights in X10 mode. I had almost forgotten that Home Automation can actually be fun until I walked away from the whining and went back to just playing with the Stargate again. It is a true pleasure to work with!

 

[beelzerob]

I thought viruses were the one thing that Vista was specifically designed to be backward compatible with.

 

[hucker]

I don't really want to get into a religious war about windows and reliability, but one of my clients has an industrial machine that at its core is running a custom piece of hardware, win2k and a single user installed MFC based application. To the best of my knowledge there has not been a failure attributed to the OS part of the system. OUr software yup, our hardware yup, 3rd party hardware/drivers yup, windows... haven't been able to pin one on them yet.

It has also been my experience at home that windows machines with minimal software running, particularly drivers are very stable. Drivers tend to be the problem not the application software. If a driver bluescreens your PC that is not an OS problem BTW.

All of that said I'm still running a hardware solution with a HomeVision controller with a PC for webserving and logging. Both have been wonderful. It gets pushed pretty hard but has been great... 24/7/365... so far so good ... But, in the first year I've had a UPB switch die, a UPB PIM go into some mode where it wouldn't control, a dead 24VAC supply that took down my furnace (on a really cold night), my cable modem stop talking to the router. All of those were not good for WAF...

 

[thewireguy]

I do sub work for a company that installs LIFEWARE. We have done 2 major installs with the windows based system and I would NEVER recommend it to anyone!!!! I did all of the wire runs, plasma mountings, and sub system installs and the company I was subing for handled the computer and LIFEWARE setup. I finished the end of September and he has been back almost everyday to fix something in LIFEWARE that doesn't work. There compatible product list is a joke. I have been installing for over 10years and I know things can and do go wrong I never seen anything this bad. Windows is not ready to run your house....... not yet.