More LED bulb options

[greenhighlighter]

A newbie question here, and sorry if this has been answered or is obvious.  I saw that there was discussion of a list of LED lightbulbs that work with HA switches/dimmers.  Where can I find this list?  I assumed I could buy any light, but I guess not? 

 

[gatchel]

I just purchased 3 of the new Cree 60W 2700 replacements to go where the Philips yellow phosphor bulbs are currently.

Two of them look good, one of them has a noticeable color temperature difference than the other 2. Not a good start for 3 bulbs that are all marked 2700K. Cree has been good this far but there is definitely a difference. Not good.

Also the 3 Cree bulbs are on an Insteon dimmer (Togglelinc) and there is a noticeable flicker a lower dimming levels. The old Philips ones did not flicker.

 

[ControlMyPad]

A newbie question here, and sorry if this has been answered or is obvious.  I saw that there was discussion of a list of LED lightbulbs that work with HA switches/dimmers.  Where can I find this list?  I assumed I could buy any light, but I guess not? 

To make LED bulbs compatible with Z-Wave dimmers I have used what is recommended in this thread:
 
http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,9262.msg61544/topicseen.html#msg61544
 
A resistor is placed in one of the Can Lights on the switched circuit to act as a Dummy Load meaning that since most LED bulbs don't offer a complete circuit like an incandescent filament would for the Z-Wave dimmers to work.  You kiss off a few Watts to the resistor, but you save overall with converting to LED.
 
Of course do this at your own risk, but if you mount the resistor in the light can near the thermal shut-off (a small rectangular block usually wired off of the socket wires in the can) you have some measure of safety.  I trust the guy who came up with and tested this application since he builds super yachts and is focused on preventing problems at sea.

 

[George M]

To make LED bulbs compatible with Z-Wave dimmers I have used what is recommended in this thread:
 
http://forum.micasaverde.com/index.php/topic,9262.msg61544/topicseen.html#msg61544
 
A resistor is placed in one of the Can Lights on the switched circuit to act as a Dummy Load meaning that since most LED bulbs don't offer a complete circuit like an incandescent filament would for the Z-Wave dimmers to work.  You kiss off a few Watts to the resistor, but you save overall with converting to LED.
 
Of course do this at your own risk, but if you mount the resistor in the light can near the thermal shut-off (a small rectangular block usually wired off of the socket wires in the can) you have some measure of safety.  I trust the guy who came up with and tested this application since he builds super yachts and is focused on preventing problems at sea.

I tried this on some older LED bulbs. I just had the resistor hanging from the can while I tested it. It got so hot it burned my fingers when I touched it after 30 seconds. Decided I didn't want that closed up inside my can so took it off and changed out bulbs for newer ones.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

I didn't read the article, but if one is selecting a resistor you have to worry about the resistor's overall resistance value as well as it's wattage rating.
 
I.E. a resistor has two values you need to worry about.  Current = Voltage / Resistance so the lower the resistor value, the higher the current draw.
 
You then take that current draw and calculate how much power that resistor will dissipate: Power = Voltage * Current.
 
Be aware that you may have to de-rate if housed in an enclosure with a hot light bulb!
 
Overall, I would really have to take another hard look at this approach before installing it in my home.

 

[mdesmarais]

120v 1500 ohms is 9.6W. The resistor specified is 25W. I think the combo of the resistor and the LED is way less heat than the original bulb... sounds like a pretty good approach to me. I would expect the resistor to get quite hot- but it shouldn't melt or anything- way under its power rating. Not sure I would put it in a drawer with my socks, but in a metal lighting enclosure I wouldn't be terribly worried. If you hard mount it to the can, you will also dissipate heat with the whole structure.

 

[ano]

I would take a look at the newest breed of LED bulbs. Examples are the $12.95 bulb from CREE at Home Depot, or the version before that sold by Best Buy but also made by CREE.  These bulbs don't use a conventional power supply inside, and as such they might dim better, at least when several are used together.  I'd stay away from installing burning hot resistors in can lights, just for safety reasons, if nothing else.

 

[gatchel]

I would take a look at the newest breed of LED bulbs. Examples are the $12.95 bulb from CREE at Home Depot, or the version before that sold by Best Buy but also made by CREE.  These bulbs don't use a conventional power supply inside, and as such they might dim better, at least when several are used together.  I'd stay away from installing burning hot resistors in can lights, just for safety reasons, if nothing else.

I agree on the resistor stuff...

As for the Cree bulbs:
They (3 bulbs) dimmed poorly as compared to the Philips units they were replacing.

They had a somewhat sticky rubberized coating on the bulb which wasn't evenly coated, some of which ran down on to the heat sink fins in the middle of the bulb.

There were small spots on the inner translucent coating that were missing. You could almost see into the globe. It looked like poor quality control as these marks varied from one bulb to another.

The translucent globe covering the LED's also will shatter if you drop the Cree LED bulb, ask me how I know....

The new Cree bulbs really have NOT impressed me at all and are akin to the cheap crap that you get with a no-name brand. Not what I would expect from Cree.

As I mentioned above, out of three bulbs purchased from the same bin at HD, 2 of them looked great and their color was around 2700K, the third unit was closer to 3000K or 3500K. They all were returned promptly.

 

[apostolakisl]

I agree on the resistor stuff...

As for the Cree bulbs:
They (3 bulbs) dimmed poorly as compared to the Philips units they were replacing.

They had a somewhat sticky rubberized coating on the bulb which wasn't evenly coated, some of which ran down on to the heat sink fins in the middle of the bulb.

There were small spots on the inner translucent coating that were missing. You could almost see into the globe. It looked like poor quality control as these marks varied from one bulb to another.

The translucent globe covering the LED's also will shatter if you drop the Cree LED bulb, ask me how I know....

The new Cree bulbs really have NOT impressed me at all and are akin to the cheap crap that you get with a no-name brand. Not what I would expect from Cree.

As I mentioned above, out of three bulbs purchased from the same bin at HD, 2 of them looked great and their color was around 2700K, the third unit was closer to 3000K or 3500K. They all were returned promptly.

 
My experience is not at all yours, except the part about what happens if you drop it on granite. . . from only 2 inches.  Although it still works fine even with the cracked globe.  The rubber silicone like covering keeps it all together.
 
The light quality side by side to incandescent was indistinguishable to my eye.  And it dimmed quite low with no flicker at all.  I only own one so far, so I can't compare multiple bulbs side by side.

 

[NewZealandHome]

If you get some flicker from your LED lights on a dimmer circuit when the dimmer is off or very low.  You can talk to your electrician about adding a capacitor on the first light bulb in the circuit connected to Switch Live & Neutral to absorb the residual current that is causing the problem. This is the UK rated capacitor: R.49 MKP X1 SH 0.47 uF M 310VAC 40/110/56 (http://www.jefu.com.tw/capacitors/x2-mpx.html)

-Hamish,
LimitlessLED.

 

[ControlMyPad]

I tried this on some older LED bulbs. I just had the resistor hanging from the can while I tested it. It got so hot it burned my fingers when I touched it after 30 seconds. Decided I didn't want that closed up inside my can so took it off and changed out bulbs for newer ones.

Let us know what the specs were for that resistor, like @mdesmarais says below it shouldn't get that hot.  Mine are just warm to the touch, but as a precaution they are mounted near the thermal shut-off in the can.
 

120v 1500 ohms is 9.6W. The resistor specified is 25W. I think the combo of the resistor and the LED is way less heat than the original bulb... sounds like a pretty good approach to me. I would expect the resistor to get quite hot- but it shouldn't melt or anything- way under its power rating. Not sure I would put it in a drawer with my socks, but in a metal lighting enclosure I wouldn't be terribly worried. If you hard mount it to the can, you will also dissipate heat with the whole structure.

As @BraveSirRobin and @mdesmarais suggest derating the resistor is the key, the OP in my link chose 25W for the larger heat sink and to cover what he estimated as 7-10W on his circuits.  Another suggestion was to hide a small 7-10W nightlight bulb up in one of the cans with a little candelabra socket, I tried this just to see if the dummy load worked with my Leviton dimmers and it did so I am replacing them with the suggested resistors.  You can also just put an incandescent bulb in one of the fixtures on the circuit to test to see if a Dummy Load works as well.  Be aware the the resistor was selected for US 110 voltage, but later in the thread he has recommendations for 220V.
 
I have been using the Commercial Electric LED can/trims from Home Depot and if I have 4 of them on the switched circuit they don't seem to have a problem with dimming, maybe 4 together provide enough resistance.  If I do any less than 4, I get flickering when the dimmer is OFF (at least with the latest, slightly warmer color, more efficient model CE trim, I believe the earlier model flickered when ON).  Hamish's suggestion could be another way to go, but to reiterate the resistors @TimAlls recommends in the link I posted don't get hot and certainly not hotter than the 65W incan bulb they are replacing.  Also only one is needed per circuit.

 

[ano]

The translucent globe covering the LED's also will shatter if you drop the Cree LED bulb, ask me how I know....

The new Cree bulbs really have NOT impressed me at all and are akin to the cheap crap that you get with a no-name brand. Not what I would expect from Cree.

As I mentioned above, out of three bulbs purchased from the same bin at HD, 2 of them looked great and their color was around 2700K, the third unit was closer to 3000K or 3500K. They all were returned promptly.

 
Yes, they are in fact made of glass, like most bulbs, so dropping them on cement was not what they were designed for.
 
I use SimplyAutomated dimmers and they dim very smoothly for me down to around 25%.  Also keep in mind, as LED bulbs get more power efficient, and the 9W CREE bulbs are the most power efficient LED bulbs released to date, it will get harder and harder for old dimmers designed for incandescent bulbs to dim LED bulbs really low. Even at 1 W, the CREE bulb is still pretty bright. There are a new type of dimmers out now designed for LED bulbs, and they do a much better job.  An example is the HAI LED bulb dimmer UPB switch.   

 

[jhdale]

The Cree I tested dimmed with no flicker at levels where incandescent bulbs on the same fixture were only barely illuminated at all. However it was pretty bright for such a low setting.

I put four in one (non-dimming) fixture and they appear the same to me. Bad batches are always possible of course.

 

[tmbrown97]

Interesting comments about the Cree bulbs - I guess I missed them completely.  I actually came here today to post good things about them.  Perhaps HD redid them because they have a big thing saying "New!" and I don't think the previous batch even made it to my store.
 
We were discussing them in the Chat Room after another CTer found them at Home Depot.  I had just been there looking for bulbs a few weeks ago and didn't see them, but after talk of them came up I went and looked again, and now suddenly my local HD had 130 of them in stock.
 
I have to wonder if they fixed some QA issues - because the couple of us from the chat room that tested them out seem pretty happy with them.  If you go back a year or two on this thread, you'll see that I bought 35 or so of the UtiliTech bulbs mentioned early on - even though not well suited for it, I put them in all my cans because I needed something more efficient and wasn't prepared to spend $30-$50 per can for that many.  All in all, I'm actually still fine with them - never had a problem with them; but when I tested them for downlights (over the vanities) I wasn't happy with them at all; and I tolerated them for uplights in chandeliers.  Their directional light really was only good for the can light replacements IMO.
 
Well I tested out the current batch of Cree's from Home Depot - the ones with their "filament tower" or whatever they call it - and these are going to be my solution for both the down lights in our vanities and eventually the uplights in my chandeliers.  Bathroom Vanity's alone account for 21 bulbs in my house...  When compared side by side with an Incandescent you'll barely notice a difference.  I am replacing 60W clear globes with the 40W equivalent 6W bulb and it's brighter than the incandescents, despite the lower rating.  It dims as well as any LED bulb I've seen - getting pretty low.  The color is a hair colder than the incandescents, but all in all I'm quite happy.  Some reviewers complained about the dark spot in the tip - but if you compare it to a regular filament bulb, it's actually quite similar.  I love that it doesn't have that unnatural globe look to it - it really does look like there's a filament in the middle.  Just to clarify, I'm talking this one:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cree-6-Watt-40W-A19-Warm-White-2700K-Dimmable-LED-Light-Bulb-1-Pack-BA19-04527OMF-12DE26-1U110/203991778#.Uap8JaXLxrI
 
 
The other thing I hadn't solved for yet was ceiling fixtures.  If you carefully read the packaging on LED bulbs, you'll find that most say they're not for enclosed fixtures; well ceiling fixtures in bedrooms and closets account for another 24 or so bulbs in the house - so another big potential savings... for these I finally found a suitable replacement as well.  Lowes has another Utilitech bulb  - this one specifically says it's suitable for fully enclosed fixtures - and I've found it to be adequate - especially for kids' rooms and closets.  Again, mine are replacing 60W bulbs and these seem to compare just fine even with the 40W equivalent rating.
 
This all started when we realized that at our kids' bath/bedtimes, our power consumption was tripling - because downstairs is all LED and upstairs was all Incandescent; so fixing these closed fixtures and vanity downlights should make a huge different on our power bill since we spend the majority of the month in the $.39/kWh rates.

 

[apostolakisl]

Interesting comments about the Cree bulbs - I guess I missed them completely.  I actually came here today to post good things about them.  Perhaps HD redid them because they have a big thing saying "New!" and I don't think the previous batch even made it to my store.
 
We were discussing them in the Chat Room after another CTer found them at Home Depot.  I had just been there looking for bulbs a few weeks ago and didn't see them, but after talk of them came up I went and looked again, and now suddenly my local HD had 130 of them in stock.
 
I have to wonder if they fixed some QA issues - because the couple of us from the chat room that tested them out seem pretty happy with them.  If you go back a year or two on this thread, you'll see that I bought 35 or so of the UtiliTech bulbs mentioned early on - even though not well suited for it, I put them in all my cans because I needed something more efficient and wasn't prepared to spend $30-$50 per can for that many.  All in all, I'm actually still fine with them - never had a problem with them; but when I tested them for downlights (over the vanities) I wasn't happy with them at all; and I tolerated them for uplights in chandeliers.  Their directional light really was only good for the can light replacements IMO.
 
Well I tested out the current batch of Cree's from Home Depot - the ones with their "filament tower" or whatever they call it - and these are going to be my solution for both the down lights in our vanities and eventually the uplights in my chandeliers.  Bathroom Vanity's alone account for 21 bulbs in my house...  When compared side by side with an Incandescent you'll barely notice a difference.  I am replacing 60W clear globes with the 40W equivalent 6W bulb and it's brighter than the incandescents, despite the lower rating.  It dims as well as any LED bulb I've seen - getting pretty low.  The color is a hair colder than the incandescents, but all in all I'm quite happy.  Some reviewers complained about the dark spot in the tip - but if you compare it to a regular filament bulb, it's actually quite similar.  I love that it doesn't have that unnatural globe look to it - it really does look like there's a filament in the middle.  Just to clarify, I'm talking this one:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cree-6-Watt-40W-A19-Warm-White-2700K-Dimmable-LED-Light-Bulb-1-Pack-BA19-04527OMF-12DE26-1U110/203991778#.Uap8JaXLxrI
 
 
The other thing I hadn't solved for yet was ceiling fixtures.  If you carefully read the packaging on LED bulbs, you'll find that most say they're not for enclosed fixtures; well ceiling fixtures in bedrooms and closets account for another 24 or so bulbs in the house - so another big potential savings... for these I finally found a suitable replacement as well.  Lowes has another Utilitech bulb  - this one specifically says it's suitable for fully enclosed fixtures - and I've found it to be adequate - especially for kids' rooms and closets.  Again, mine are replacing 60W bulbs and these seem to compare just fine even with the 40W equivalent rating.
 
This all started when we realized that at our kids' bath/bedtimes, our power consumption was tripling - because downstairs is all LED and upstairs was all Incandescent; so fixing these closed fixtures and vanity downlights should make a huge different on our power bill since we spend the majority of the month in the $.39/kWh rates.

 
Since my previous post (having only bought 1), I am now up to 10.  No problems at all.  I got the 60 watt eq version.  I did all of my outdoor coach lights and now actually feel like it is OK just to turn those on at night.  6 of those use less power than 1 incandescent and they look exactly the same in the fixtures.  Makes the house a little more inviting.  I will probably by another 10 of them here soon which should pretty much take care of all the a19 bulbs in my house that are actually used more than once a month.
 
When you say chandelier, what are you referring to?  My chandeliers all use the small base candelabra bulbs and lots of them.  So far I haven't found one of those I like and furthermore even if I did like them, it makes no sense financially when one considers the cost of like 15 of them vs electric savings.