My Insteon Installation experiences

[upstatemike]

Most of the concern about 3-way circuits and companin switches refer to hard-wired companion switches as used with X-10 or UPB. Insteon does not use hardwired companion switches or traveller wires so the "switch location" issues do not apply.

If the electrician wires for "normal" 3-way circuits AND provides a neutral in every box then you will be all set to use Insteon with the option to go back to regular switches if you ever wanted to for some reason.

 

[PeterW]

I must be missing something. I can't imagine a reason why a circuit wired for 3-way couldn't be used with insteon, short of a missing-neutral scenario.

I've had some interesting 3-way configurations here to deal with, but so far none have been a showstopper.

In this old house, most of the 3-way wiring was done with a feed (hot+neutral) cable coming into a deep j-box and two traveller wires to the other switch, and the wire to the load at the "other" switch. I was fortunate that each of the "other" switch locations had neutral available because the load cable came back to the box with its neutral.

Some were wired with 3-conductor cable (black, white, red) between the j-box locations. Others were wired with a pair of 2-conductor (black, white) cables between them.

In one case, there was a 3-conductor cable between the J-boxes with no power feed at one end at all. The other end had the incoming power and the load cable. So what I did there was reuse the cable to bring power to the remote switch. Except in this case, it was the switch we used most often, so I re-used the red wire to carry the load wire there too. (If there was ever going to be an insteon communication problem, that was the switch that needed to work most).

Fortunately, with the Insteon switches, you don't have to use the traveller wire for signalling like was necessary with the X10 switches. The problems of load-in-the-middle etc shouldn't be an issue. It might require a bit of creativity though.

 

[PeterW]

MrGibbage: One bit of personal advice. I've found it worthwhile to have the house wired so that room lights and power outlets are on different circuits. You can be sure that the only times that you'll trip your breakers due to an overload will be at night, in the dark. There is nothing worse than overloading outlets in a room and then being plunged into darkness. Different circuits is normal for places like Australia, but then again, most lighting is hardwired and rarely on some random power outlet in a room. I'm trying to recall if the USA electrical codes say something about this. I have a nagging feeling that I've read somewhere that there is an issue about needing to have ALL outlets in a room killed by a single breaker, and if you have freestanding lighting outlets then that might be a problem.

So.. checklist:
1) neutral to every switch j-box
2) room lights on different circuits to power outlets. *
3) oh, and you can never have too many power outlets!

* if allowed by code

 

[Digger]

Right or wrong I tried having at least one outlet in a room from a different circuit so if need be I always had a live circuit in a room if I need to shut off power and work in the room. I dont think that the code disallows this but maybe I missed that.

I know that in my bathroom I have 3 circuits, my kitchen about 6, and almost every other room 2 (with a few exceptions). In fact the code requires this to a degree (dedicated lines for Wall/Window AC's etc). I also unplug the AC and use that for the vacuum etc since the vacuum pulls about 15A and I dont trip a breaker that way.

The more outlets the better as long as the circuits are segregated enough that you never overload them. I put an outlet every 6 to 8 feet on may walls where I thought that we would need them. When I bought my house there were 6 breakers in the panel (3 bedroom split). Now I have about 26 to 30 or so. Most of my circuits are loaded worst case about half of what the breaker/wire is rated. I cant remember ever tripping a breaker (other than a rare trip of a GFCI breaker) since I rewired the house. I had a licensed electrician cover me under his license and had an inspection so I guess I could not have missed much as far as code requirements (no inspector catches everything).

Overloaded circuits and more so overloaded extension cords are what causes many home fires they say.

 

[mdonovan]

I may have to look at this again. The electrician I had out seemed to know what he was talking about, and when he showed it to me it made sense what he was saying, but I'm no electrical genius either, so I have to take his word for it.

When he showed me the switch wiring in the dining room (the one that finally triggered me to tell him to bag it and put all my old switches back) it appeared to be missing a wire. From what I recall, the switch was missing a load wire. There were a neutral, switchleg (I think that's what he called it) and ground. Does that make sense? I figured since he called Smarthome and they told him "ain't gonna work" that was that.

Hmmmm...

Matt

 

[Guy Lavoie]

Having a just a neutral and a switchleg would not make any sense, since you never switch the neutral to control a load, only the hot side. The ground is just a safety ground so it doesn't count as a conductor.

Normally, you either have power coming into a switchbox with the neutral continuing on to the load and the hot going through the switch on its way to the load (preferred scenario), or just a single cable coming from the light fixture with the hot and the switchleg going back to the load ie: the light fixture. This second scenario is the one that you can't use with Insteon, UPB, etc. In all of these configurations, you will usually also see (bare) ground wires, unless your wiring is quite old.

 

[mdonovan]

I'm sure you're right Guy, your second scenario sounds like what they found in the switch box. I guess that settles that. Now I need to decide what to do with all these switches. I hate to give up, lighting control was a big priority for me. I'll have to contect the place I bought the switches and see if they will take them back.

Thanks everybody for all the responses

Matt

 

[eufreka]

...or just a single cable coming from the light fixture with the hot and the switchleg going back to the load ie: the light fixture. This second scenario is the one that you can't use with Insteon, UPB, etc...

However....

Isn't it true that you can actually "re-wire" this into a workable solution?

The issue is that the LINE (along with the neutral) is either (1) at the fixture or (2) another switch location...isn't it?

It was my understanding that you can disassemble the circuit...I am definitely NOT knowledgeable about this...

If it is a 3-way, can you isolate the "secondary" switch location by rewiring it into a LINE + Neutral + Ground that is not controlling any load? Then rewire the rest of the circuit into a single switch controlling the load. You may have to go into all switch locations and the fixture box to do it. When you drop in your Insteon switches, just link the "isolated" line-only switch back to the actual load switch controlling the fixture....

If the switch is the ONLY switch, then once relay modules are available, won't you be able to do the same: Wire a relay into the fixture, convert the switch to a LINE/Neutral/Ground, and control it that way?

Just wondering...because it took me a while to understand that the first step in Insteon wiring is to disassemble existing 3-way wiring circuits.

When I first started peeking into my switch locations, I was initially concerned. Then I figured out that there is only one location that is an issue at my house--a 3-way hallway light (which I plan to handle as described above).

All my other potentially difficult boxes are multi-switch locations, and so there is definitely a neutral available.

 

[Xpendable]

I went through pretty much the exact same scenario about a week ago. I have a 5-way circuit (4 light switches) controlling the same 2 hallway lights. Initially I had opened up the first switch and discovered that there was no neutral wire. For some crazy reason, I assumed that the other 3 switches didn't have a neutral wire, either. A few weeks later I pulled all the covers off of all four switches and discovered that I did have neutral in all but one of the switches.

Here's what I had originally:
===================
Gang A ) 3-way switch at end of circuit. Switch had a black line wire going to the common terminal and 2 brown traveller wires. No neutral in this box. The 2 brown wires connected this switch to switch B.

Gang B ) 4-way switch with 4 brown traveller wires connected to it. Neutral white wire and black line wire available in the box but not connected. The 4 brown wires connected this switch to switchs A and C.

Gang C ) 4-way switch with 4 brown traveller wires connected to it. Neutral white wire and black line wire available in the box but not connected. The 4 brown wires connected this switch to switchs B and D.

Gang D ) 3-way switch at the other end of the circuit. Switch had a red load wire going to the common terminal that connected to the actual load (lights) and had 2 brown traveller wires that connected this switch to switch C. Black line and white neutral wires available in this box.

Here's how I installed my Insteon switches:
============================
Gang A ) Installed Icon Dimmer as a virtual switch. Connected only the black line wire and neutral wire. I used one of the brown traveler wires to pass neutral from Gang C to this Gang. In order to make it pass code, I used white electrical tape on each end of the brown wire to identify that it was a neutral wire. The red wire on this SwitchLinc is not connected to anything. the other brown wire was also capped and not connected to anything.

Gang B ) Installed Icon Dimmer as a virtual switch. Connected only the black line wire and white neutral wire. I connected one of the brown traveller wires to the white neutral to pass neutral to Gang A. The other 3 brown wires were disconnected and capped off.

Gang C ) Installed Icon Dimmer as a virtual switch. Connected only the black line wire and white neutral wire. All 4 brown traveller wires were disconnected and capped off.

Gang D ) Installed Icon Dimmer as actual switch controlling the load. Connected the black line wire, white neutral wire, and red load wire going to the lights. The 2 brown wires were disconnected and capped off.

Linking:
=========
Since the switch in Gang D is the only switch that is actually controlling the load, Switches in gangs A,B, and C must be linked to Switch D. Switch D was then linked back (crosslinked) back to switches A,B, and C so that the LED on each switch actually indicates the same status as the LED on switch D. In addition, I crosslinked a button on a KeypadLinc in the master bedroom to switch D so I could also control the hallway lights from my bedroom.

Hopefully this information is helpful to those that might be wondering how to convert 3-way, 4-way, and 5-way circuits to Insteon.

 

[Mike]

I'm sure you're right Guy, your second scenario sounds like what they found in the switch box. I guess that settles that. Now I need to decide what to do with all these switches. I hate to give up, lighting control was a big priority for me. I'll have to contect the place I bought the switches and see if they will take them back.

Thanks everybody for all the responses

Matt

The other option is to have the electrician fix the problem. While this may require some notching in the walls, electricians are 'known' for their miraculous 'fishing' abilities.

It sounds like that issue will hurt your chances of using a variety of automated lighting choices.

It might make sense to get a quote on what it would take to run new wire where appropriate, and the damage that would do to the walls. It might be fairly reasonable (more so if you had any plans to do painting in the near future).

If you don't want to do the fixing of any damage, you can probably get a painter to come in for a day and patch things up and repaint.

Another option to consider. I did a lot of this when I got my house (I missed a little which I have been correcting recently) and I'm happy I made the investment.

 

[mdonovan]

I did email another electrician this morning to see how much it would be to come to my house and see what's up. This company claims to do home automation as part of their business, so we'll see. I do plan to ask about getting the problem fixed, because, as you mention, this eliminates quite a bit if not all of my lighting automation in the future.

Matt

 

[kwilcox]

There's a common three-way wiring technique that will not allow retrofit for most "smart switches" that use a signal wire to control the slave. In this scenario, 3 conductor cables go to both switches and they all meet up at the controlled light where hot and neutral also goes. To install signalling slave type switches, one box must have 4 wires in it: Hot, neutral, signal to slave and load. In this case you are SOL unless you cannabalize a ground wire for the signal in one of the boxes....

Definitely not to code and as I've stated before, I've never done it personally either...

 

[Guy Lavoie]

Another issue with 3 way circuits is that different brands and protocols use different ways of implementing slave switches, which makes some situations harder then others. For example:

- Insteon has no slave switches as such, so a "slave" is actually an ordinary switch acting as a transmitter only. This is the most flexible because you only need 2 wires (hot and neutral) and they don't necessarily have to be on the same electrical circuit.

- Switchlinc X10 slaves need 3 wires: hot, neutral and a control wire. In essence, they are a powered transmitter with a dedicated signal line (the control wire). This is the least flexible because you need all three conductors of the traveller cable. In this setup, line and neutral go to all switches (slave and master) and then on to the load at the master switch.

- Leviton dimmers use a different slave wiring scheme with just two wires, but these go to the load side of the master switch and to a control wire...neither hot nor neutral is used. This is handy because you only need two wires, but is a pain if you also had wanted to send hot and neutral to the slave switch location for a transmitter (like a HCC4D) because now you need a total of 4 wires. With Leviton relay switches however, the two wires needed are hot and control so in that case, you can use the third wire for neutral to provide power to an optional transmitter at the slave location. This is also how original X10 brand switches do it.

So many schemes just to confuse us!