Need An Insteon Firmware Flashing Device
- Thread starter upstatemike
- Start date
toymaster458
Active Member
Now only if you could update it your self instead of doing an RMA :angry:Mike said:
I think they have another potential product, even if it were a simple one that used a prom (and sell the proms if you needed too, or ideally allow software downloads but that might increase the cost) and a limited flash device, I bet plenty of people would buy them. Any Insteon install is going to average what, 30 devices (for a small setup). Hell, this is the kind of thing to sell cheap anyway as it helps the user base and makes for happier demo homes.
The other side though is, beyond this initial period, how much will they be needed (how many changes will be made once we get a little further down the insteon path)? The comments so far are that many of the changes have been minor recently, so the impact is primarily to early adopters (then again pointing out that you want to take care of the early adopters and dealers...)
The other side though is, beyond this initial period, how much will they be needed (how many changes will be made once we get a little further down the insteon path)? The comments so far are that many of the changes have been minor recently, so the impact is primarily to early adopters (then again pointing out that you want to take care of the early adopters and dealers...)
The cost of a simple device to update the firmware would be well worth it. The cost to unistall, wire in a regular switch, and return the Insteon Switch via UPS, and then reinstall the replacement is to much to have to do for more than a couple switches.
The hardware is definitely changing along with the firmware and even the packaging changed in just the past few weeks.
I noticed today (and confirmed tonight) that two switches that came in the same order yesterday have a huge difference in the LED brightness (they are side by side so its obvious). Not worthing pulling one out (and which one?) and paying for the return shipping costs. I am already returning one defective switch at about $5.00 shipping.
I am also stuck with some green and now the new amber LED's on the ICONS. I admit the amber is better with the Ivory paddles. Why do they provide a clear lightpipe with the Ivory paddles (one lightpipe for every two paddles)? I should have waited until things settled down (I even said I would wait six months) but I gave in after talking to someone on here from Smarthome. Admittedly these items are fairly trivial but I am about $1000 into this and its still flaky and cosmetically not quite there.
The hardware is definitely changing along with the firmware and even the packaging changed in just the past few weeks.
I noticed today (and confirmed tonight) that two switches that came in the same order yesterday have a huge difference in the LED brightness (they are side by side so its obvious). Not worthing pulling one out (and which one?) and paying for the return shipping costs. I am already returning one defective switch at about $5.00 shipping.
I am also stuck with some green and now the new amber LED's on the ICONS. I admit the amber is better with the Ivory paddles. Why do they provide a clear lightpipe with the Ivory paddles (one lightpipe for every two paddles)? I should have waited until things settled down (I even said I would wait six months) but I gave in after talking to someone on here from Smarthome. Admittedly these items are fairly trivial but I am about $1000 into this and its still flaky and cosmetically not quite there.
Do the UPB switches offer firmware upgrade capability? Being realistic, this isn't something I'd expect in a hardwired, relatively low cost device? Yes, I can see the need for it, but if SH wants to protect their intellectual property, that's hard to do if you start giving even dealers the firmware files (which by their nature cannot be encrypted or protected).
I don't know why SH switched the Icons from green to amber, but that's not a huge thing IMHO.
I think the much bigger issue is there seem to be some significant problems still with Insteon. SH needs to address these issues or Insteon is destined to become another X10--cheap but with a reputation for lots of problems. Perhaps SH doesn't care, that's all they want Insteon to be? But if they ever want to compete with even UPB, they need to address these things:
Reliablity - There are lots of reports of Insteon commands being lost, needing large numbers of devices to make the "network" reliable, and even devices that are failing and have to be replaced. With energy costs rising, CFL lamps save lots of real money and being told by SH to replace them with incadescent bulbs is NOT a viable solution to power line noise.
Central Control Support - Currently only ELK offers a "native" non-PC, non-X10, control of Insteon (as far as I know?). And that interface is currently buggy requiring long delays between commands, etc.
Accidental Reprogramming/Linking - It would be nice if the "10 second hold" feature could be disabled, or a paperclip "set" switch be used instead, for set up of the wall devices?
True Multi-Way Switch Support - I realize this is a trade-off, but getting electricans to install to install Insteon "slave" switches in multi-way lighting circuits that won't work without being programmed is difficult at best. They have no idea if everything is even wired correctly as they can't test the slave switches. They probably cannot be bothered to learn how and take the time to link the devices (something that would normally be handled by the low voltage contractor instead).
It seems to me, SH is pushing Insteon in the DIY small scale retrofit direction rather than towards serious whole house automation to compete with UPB, etc?
I don't know why SH switched the Icons from green to amber, but that's not a huge thing IMHO.
I think the much bigger issue is there seem to be some significant problems still with Insteon. SH needs to address these issues or Insteon is destined to become another X10--cheap but with a reputation for lots of problems. Perhaps SH doesn't care, that's all they want Insteon to be? But if they ever want to compete with even UPB, they need to address these things:
Reliablity - There are lots of reports of Insteon commands being lost, needing large numbers of devices to make the "network" reliable, and even devices that are failing and have to be replaced. With energy costs rising, CFL lamps save lots of real money and being told by SH to replace them with incadescent bulbs is NOT a viable solution to power line noise.
Central Control Support - Currently only ELK offers a "native" non-PC, non-X10, control of Insteon (as far as I know?). And that interface is currently buggy requiring long delays between commands, etc.
Accidental Reprogramming/Linking - It would be nice if the "10 second hold" feature could be disabled, or a paperclip "set" switch be used instead, for set up of the wall devices?
True Multi-Way Switch Support - I realize this is a trade-off, but getting electricans to install to install Insteon "slave" switches in multi-way lighting circuits that won't work without being programmed is difficult at best. They have no idea if everything is even wired correctly as they can't test the slave switches. They probably cannot be bothered to learn how and take the time to link the devices (something that would normally be handled by the low voltage contractor instead).
It seems to me, SH is pushing Insteon in the DIY small scale retrofit direction rather than towards serious whole house automation to compete with UPB, etc?
I know that I am at least one of the people that SH told to put in incandescent bulbs to see if it alleviated the problem. Well it did. Then I replaced some (not all yet) of the CFL's with newer CFL's and the problems have not come back.
Sooooooo is the problem with the Insteon or maybe with bulbs that did not meet FCC requirements for noise etc (radiated emissions)? You can only design a PLC or RF switch/dimmer to handle so much noise. If its extremly noisy I dont think any device can handle it all of the time.
I admit that some of my older bulbs were purchased "cheap" but that was all I could afford at the time. IF I can replace all of my bulbs with newer ones and this continue to work then I will be happy. They were cheap bulbs and I got about 5 years out of them. I got what I paid for.
My gripe was that some people at SH were telling me to just "buy more" to solve the problem. The one tech was VERY knowledgeable and "suggested" that I try this. He was not sure since I dont think its a common problem. He happened to have made a correct educated guess I would say. Since this is a fairly new product not all of the techs there may be up to speed with everything that could happen. This tech apparently had seen this before.
In the end I think I will be happy that I bought the Insteon. I admit for a few weeks there I was concerned but its working out well in the end. It was a significant investment for me right now as money is somewhat tight. I am hoping to save enough electric to get a return on my investment over time.
I also love toys. Cant wait to see the new products. Saving my pennies!
Sooooooo is the problem with the Insteon or maybe with bulbs that did not meet FCC requirements for noise etc (radiated emissions)? You can only design a PLC or RF switch/dimmer to handle so much noise. If its extremly noisy I dont think any device can handle it all of the time.
I admit that some of my older bulbs were purchased "cheap" but that was all I could afford at the time. IF I can replace all of my bulbs with newer ones and this continue to work then I will be happy. They were cheap bulbs and I got about 5 years out of them. I got what I paid for.
My gripe was that some people at SH were telling me to just "buy more" to solve the problem. The one tech was VERY knowledgeable and "suggested" that I try this. He was not sure since I dont think its a common problem. He happened to have made a correct educated guess I would say. Since this is a fairly new product not all of the techs there may be up to speed with everything that could happen. This tech apparently had seen this before.
In the end I think I will be happy that I bought the Insteon. I admit for a few weeks there I was concerned but its working out well in the end. It was a significant investment for me right now as money is somewhat tight. I am hoping to save enough electric to get a return on my investment over time.
I also love toys. Cant wait to see the new products. Saving my pennies!
upstatemike
Senior Member
nwavguy said:
As a hardware/embedded engineer I can tell you socketed parts (i.e. a replaceable ROM) are not an option on low cost devices. Low cost devices usually have 100% surface mount devices. The sockets would be problimatic in assembly, and the ROM chips would have to be installed by hand (surface mount assembly is normally 100% automated).
Providing an upgrade connector was a good idea. And as we both surmise, the issue is more one of who you let have the firmware and upgrade tools. Another issue is a botched upgrade (i.e. unplugging the connector during the upgrade, etc.) may render the device unusable and unupgradeable. Some flash parts are tolerant of a failed upgrade (i.e. you can try again) and some cannot. So allowing field upgrades might increase their return rate of dead devices.
As for the SmartHome marketing strategy, from what I gather in the largely censored "future roadmap" thread, they ARE planning things like screw-in dimmer modules etc? I agree their plans are confusing, but if anything, they seem more directed at replacing X10 than anything else? Which to me, is unfortunate. Sooner or later someone is going to mass produce an affordable, reliable, high quality PLC or RF solution that's suitable for both DIY and professional-grade whole house installs.
As I see it, either the price of UPB and/or Z-Wave needs to come down, or the quality of Insteon needs to go up.
Providing an upgrade connector was a good idea. And as we both surmise, the issue is more one of who you let have the firmware and upgrade tools. Another issue is a botched upgrade (i.e. unplugging the connector during the upgrade, etc.) may render the device unusable and unupgradeable. Some flash parts are tolerant of a failed upgrade (i.e. you can try again) and some cannot. So allowing field upgrades might increase their return rate of dead devices.
As for the SmartHome marketing strategy, from what I gather in the largely censored "future roadmap" thread, they ARE planning things like screw-in dimmer modules etc? I agree their plans are confusing, but if anything, they seem more directed at replacing X10 than anything else? Which to me, is unfortunate. Sooner or later someone is going to mass produce an affordable, reliable, high quality PLC or RF solution that's suitable for both DIY and professional-grade whole house installs.
As I see it, either the price of UPB and/or Z-Wave needs to come down, or the quality of Insteon needs to go up.
George West
Member
For some insight into SmartHome's marketing strategy see the interview that WTRS did with Rajeev Kapur, SH VP Sales and Marketing, last November.upstatemike said:
http://www.wtrs.net/newsletter.htm
FWIW my take on the SH strategy is that they intend to provide HA products that are highly reliable, inexpensive and easy to use. SH is a very fiscally responsible company and the initial product mix for INSTEON are those products that will provide the most immediate sales. The SH and the Intermatic ZWave products are functionaly identical which makes a bunch of sense to me since both companies are introducing products based on new technologies to the marketplace.
In the past the HA market has been divided between the very high end custom installations and the hobbyist market. The segment that SH is trying to grow is the mass market between these extremes. This is one of the reasons that the SH strategy looks confusing.
We also published an interview with Raoul Wijgergangs of Zensys. It doesn't look like it is on the web page and if anyone would like a copy send me an email at [email protected]
George
