Need help with new Master Hub

mhoyt

New Member
Hi,

I just finished building a 6-channel Master Hub and I think it may be DOA. I admit that this was my first surface mount solder job so its quite possible I've cooked something. I've tested all the components and they appear to be firmly attached. I haven't connected the serial cable yet as I wanted to make sure it showed signs of life first.

When I connect the power, the green LED does not light.

Any thoughts on what might be the problem? I read one posting about a bad regulator. Where would I probe it to test it? Any other thoughts on what might be wrong? Is there is recommended temperature I should've used on my soldering iron to avoid any thermal damage to the components?

I'm worried that there may be multiple things wrong with this but I can't even get out of the starting gate yet.

Anybody have any advice?

Much obliged,

Mike
 
Just a bit more information on my technique. I googled surface mount soldering advice. Here is a bulletized breakdown of my approach:

- used a rosin flux pen, I read somewhere to not use solder paste.
- did not use solder for the surface mounts parts (see *'s below), I read online that the PCB pads were pre-flowed with enough solder to tack down parts.
- used solder for through-hole parts
- * the main IC part kept coming lose so I tacked all the pins down with solder
- * the electrolytic capacitors didn't stay either so I soldered them as well.

Am I confused about the pre-flowed solder? Should I have used solder for all contact points?

One other quick point. I just checked continuity on some of the parts and there doesn't appear to be any continuity through the regulator. Should there be?

thanks in advance,

Mike
 
Don't know if I would qualify as an authority on this. I have a lot of soldering experience, but only surface mount stuff have done is to replace a bad part.
I just recently removed/replaced a bad surface mount on a 6 channel master hub and technique worked.

- I wouldn't paint flux on the board, but most of your solder you get on a spool is called rosin core solder. It has flux in it to help the solder flow better. Here is an example: Rosin Core Solder. That is what I would use.

- The solder pads on the circuit board probably have a thin layer of solder on them. Not sure how much though since I am usually in the capacity of replacing a part that has already been installed. When I replace a surface mount I clip the legs of the chip on on it. Then use solder wick, called solder braid here: Solder Braid to suck up the excess solder from the pad or to expose the hole. If it is a diode or something I use the solder wick to help remove the part.

Put a tiny bit of solder on each pad or at least one. Then position the part on the pads. Hold it down with a pointy thing to keep it in place. Then quickly touch the pad/pin junction with the soldering iron to melt the solder and make the part stick. Then move on to the other legs and touch the soldering iron to the pad/leg junction to secure the other legs of the part. Then come back to the first leg and secure it.

Some people put too much solder or hold the iron on too long. You don't need a lot of solder, just enough to make the junction. If I get too much I will remove it with solder wick and reapply the proper amount of solder. Don't hold the soldering iron on the pad or part for long at all or you will risk lifting the pad or ruining the part. Basically have everything ready, quickly put iron to junction, then quickly touch solder to junction. Then remove both. Don't move part for few seconds or risk bad solder joint. If didn't get enough solder,... I blow on the part and wait a bit for it to cool before attempting to fix my error.

Am I confused about the pre-flowed solder? Should I have used solder for all contact points?
I think the pre-flowed they are refering to is the solder already on the board when you get it. But unless you have the same kind of equipment you are going to have to solder the parts on. Use a small tip iron. There might be enough on the board to make the part stay, but I would apply a tiny amount to each leg/pad anyway. Here is how they make surface mount boards: Wiki Surface Mount

I just checked continuity on some of the parts and there doesn't appear to be any continuity through the regulator.
Depends on how you are checking. Some meters have a diode check setting. You might get low value when forward biasing and high or open when reverse biasing the part. But if you measured your regulator and got the same reading forward and reversed biased you probably have a bad part (but that is for diodes/transistors, regulator might not read the same). If you are using the resistance setting on the meter like you would check for a short/open or resistor measurement and got continuity (assuming you mean no or very low value), then you would have a short in the regulator, which isn't good. Here is how to check components: Test Components
Also note that lot of times you might get a different reading if the part is in circuit (attached to board with other components). Then you have to look at the schematic and might even have to lift another component to test a part.

Hope this helps. If you don't have much experience soldering. I would go to radio shack or somewhere and get some of those perfboards with holes and solder pads and practice maybe putting a few old resistors, caps,... in. You will get the hang of how much and how long to hold the iron.

Here are a few sites I just found on how to solder:
How to Solder 1
How to Solder 2
Just type 'how to solder' in google and you will find a lot.

I read one posting about a bad regulator. Where would I probe it to test it?
Well, look at the schematic and trace it down on the board where the OUT pin is and measure from ground to the OUT pin. Or looking at the schematic I can see if you measure from ground to JP2 jumper you will read the OUT from the regulator and if measure from JP1 to ground you will read the input voltage to the IN on the regulator. You should be able to find ground on the negative side of the filter capacitors C4 and C5 by the regulator. I am just looking the schematic and if it is accurate you should be able to find the points to measure from on the board.
I'm not sure which package the regulator on the board is using but you can find the pinout here: LM78M05
 
Thanks David. I was using the resistance setting on the meter but I don't think I was using a proper ground. I'll check it again. I left the iron on some of the joints for a long time. It was long enough to see the flux start to boil. I actually had one part melt a little (I had some replacements) so I think I might start over.

Thanks again,

Mike
 
I'll add my limited experience with SMD, which consists so far of soldering one DS2450 to an SOIC-DIP adapter.

I used a 1/16th inch chisel tip and the iron set to about 500*F.
If I would have remembered, I would have switched the tip to the 1/32 point.

I used Radio Shack .015 dia "high tech silver bearing solder" p/n 64-035.
That's what they had when I went to buy some small diameter solder last summer and it seems to work OK for everything.

Since I don't have 4 hands, I taped (as in scotch) the chip in the correct position, soldered one corner, soldered the opposite corner, then did the rest of the pins alternating sides so the heat didn't build up too much. You could also give it a shot of dust off to cool it down.

Soldering SMD is tedious detailed work and its not something I'd want to do for a full time hobby.
Its well worth it to buy the assembled boards. Instant gratification.
 
Its well worth it to buy the assembled boards. Instant gratification.
Here Here! I am all for Instant Gratification.

Even though I solder quite well and have done it a lot over the years with much success, I didn't feel the cost savings of the kit over the assembled and tested boards was worth it. Also I only have my knowledge and a DVM at home and this was my first experience with 1-wire, so I felt having a tested board was worth it. Plus with having to have the computer setup and such it wasn't like I could take it to work and look at it either.

I would say that anyone starting out with 1-wire or someone with limited testing and or fabrication experience should at least buy their 1st 1-wire board fully assembled and tested. Hell, even last night I repaired a board at work and put the DIP socket in backwards. But I'm not changing it cause the orientation is silk-screened on the board and I will probably be the only one ever replacing the chip if it goes bad (I'm the only one with the chips, bwahahah). Plus we are going to upgrade the whole setup sometime anyway cause the motor transmission isn't available anymore and the new motors require a new board.

On the solder iron. I almost always have used a regular pencil type solder iron without any controls. But always wait until the tip is ready. Test it with a bit of solder, when the solder melts instantly on the tip it should be ready. Also always wipe the tip off before starting to solder and wipe it frequently. That keeps the tip clean, the joints look better and are better electrically. You want to heat the pin and pad at the same time (if at all possible). You want clean shiny smooth solder joint when done. I have also found that if you have to retouch a joint it is better to add a tiny bit of solder at the same time or remove some of the solder with wick and resolder the joint. Trying to resolder with just putting the iron to the joint doesn't look very good even though it might work. You have already lost most of the flux in the solder joint so to retouch it you need to add more (which comes from the rosin core solder). And don't hold the tip to the joint very long at all, only a few seconds.

ANOTHER TIP: If you are trying to remove a SMD that doesn't have legs you can clip off. You can try removing the solder with the solder wick, but if that don't work you can use TWO solder irons. This is mainly for diodes and such with two pads. Heat both pads up at the same time and quickly lift the chip off the pads. But don't hold the chip with the iron, this is just to get it off the pads.

Also, get this small solder wick/braid, like .050" wide. It heats up faster and you don't expose your pads/parts to too much heat trying to remove solder.
Best of Luck on trying to get your board working!
 
Mike,

It looks like you got some good answers but I wanted to throw a quick note out there about our boards. Our newer boards are RoHS compliant which means no lead. So they are all immersion gold plated instead of the the older way of coating the traces where they would melt lead solder over the copper traces. With the old way there would be some solder on the pad so that you could tack down surface mount components without adding extra solder, but with the immersion gold boards you have to add some solder when you want to tack a component down.

When I solder surface mount components I get a small bit of solder on the iron tip and then I hold the component in place with a pair of tweezers and tack down one lead. I can then go back and solder down all the leads, including the one I tacked.

Eric
 
Eric,

I just built the new replacement master hub kit that I ordered last week. I used solder this time and I think I did a reasonable job of putting it together. ie. no major mishaps. I am right back to where I was before. This board doesn't show any signs of life with the green LED when I plug in the power supply.

I don't have the serial cable connected yet as I wanted to just get a green LED before I snaked through the case and soldered down the serial cable. I'm at a loss with what to do. Can you help me out?

Thanks,

Mike

Mike,

It looks like you got some good answers but I wanted to throw a quick note out there about our boards. Our newer boards are RoHS compliant which means no lead. So they are all immersion gold plated instead of the the older way of coating the traces where they would melt lead solder over the copper traces. With the old way there would be some solder on the pad so that you could tack down surface mount components without adding extra solder, but with the immersion gold boards you have to add some solder when you want to tack a component down.

When I solder surface mount components I get a small bit of solder on the iron tip and then I hold the component in place with a pair of tweezers and tack down one lead. I can then go back and solder down all the leads, including the one I tacked.

Eric
 
Mike,

Have you used a meter to see if there is actually any voltage being supplied by the voltage regulator? Do you have the green LED mounted in the correct orientation?

Eric

Eric,

I just built the new replacement master hub kit that I ordered last week. I used solder this time and I think I did a reasonable job of putting it together. ie. no major mishaps. I am right back to where I was before. This board doesn't show any signs of life with the green LED when I plug in the power supply.

I don't have the serial cable connected yet as I wanted to just get a green LED before I snaked through the case and soldered down the serial cable. I'm at a loss with what to do. Can you help me out?

Thanks,

Mike
 
Eric,

I'm somewhat at a loss as to how to test the regulator. I'm somewhat of a hack when it comes to using my multi-meter. I thought I could test the powersupply by probing the inside of the power jack (from the adapter) with the red lead and the outside with the black lead but I get nothing. I'm not 100% sure my multi-meter is working.

What should I probe on the regulator and how? I didn't realize the LEDs had a particular orientation. I oriented them all with the longer lead nearer the "LEDX" label on the silk-screen (ie. all the long leads are towards the regulator. Is this right or wrong?

Thanks for the help.

Mike

Mike,

Have you used a meter to see if there is actually any voltage being supplied by the voltage regulator? Do you have the green LED mounted in the correct orientation?

Eric

Eric,

I just built the new replacement master hub kit that I ordered last week. I used solder this time and I think I did a reasonable job of putting it together. ie. no major mishaps. I am right back to where I was before. This board doesn't show any signs of life with the green LED when I plug in the power supply.

I don't have the serial cable connected yet as I wanted to just get a green LED before I snaked through the case and soldered down the serial cable. I'm at a loss with what to do. Can you help me out?

Thanks,

Mike
 
Eric,

I just so happen to have recently purchased a portable car battery jump-starter. Its fully charged at ~14V. My multimeter doesn't read any voltage. I think my multimeter is bad.

I'm going to replace it and I'll let you know what I am able to see.

Mike

Eric,

I'm somewhat at a loss as to how to test the regulator. I'm somewhat of a hack when it comes to using my multi-meter. I thought I could test the powersupply by probing the inside of the power jack (from the adapter) with the red lead and the outside with the black lead but I get nothing. I'm not 100% sure my multi-meter is working.

What should I probe on the regulator and how? I didn't realize the LEDs had a particular orientation. I oriented them all with the longer lead nearer the "LEDX" label on the silk-screen (ie. all the long leads are towards the regulator. Is this right or wrong?

Thanks for the help.

Mike

Mike,

Have you used a meter to see if there is actually any voltage being supplied by the voltage regulator? Do you have the green LED mounted in the correct orientation?

Eric

Eric,

I just built the new replacement master hub kit that I ordered last week. I used solder this time and I think I did a reasonable job of putting it together. ie. no major mishaps. I am right back to where I was before. This board doesn't show any signs of life with the green LED when I plug in the power supply.

I don't have the serial cable connected yet as I wanted to just get a green LED before I snaked through the case and soldered down the serial cable. I'm at a loss with what to do. Can you help me out?

Thanks,

Mike
 
Eric,

I got a new multimeter and its like an awakening. :-) The regulator appears to putting out .3 mV on the center pin and 5.12V on the third pin. I reversed the green LED and it works! I'm assuming I need to reverse the other LEDs as well.

Mike

Eric,

I just so happen to have recently purchased a portable car battery jump-starter. Its fully charged at ~14V. My multimeter doesn't read any voltage. I think my multimeter is bad.

I'm going to replace it and I'll let you know what I am able to see.

Mike

Eric,

I'm somewhat at a loss as to how to test the regulator. I'm somewhat of a hack when it comes to using my multi-meter. I thought I could test the powersupply by probing the inside of the power jack (from the adapter) with the red lead and the outside with the black lead but I get nothing. I'm not 100% sure my multi-meter is working.

What should I probe on the regulator and how? I didn't realize the LEDs had a particular orientation. I oriented them all with the longer lead nearer the "LEDX" label on the silk-screen (ie. all the long leads are towards the regulator. Is this right or wrong?

Thanks for the help.

Mike

Mike,

Have you used a meter to see if there is actually any voltage being supplied by the voltage regulator? Do you have the green LED mounted in the correct orientation?

Eric

Eric,

I just built the new replacement master hub kit that I ordered last week. I used solder this time and I think I did a reasonable job of putting it together. ie. no major mishaps. I am right back to where I was before. This board doesn't show any signs of life with the green LED when I plug in the power supply.

I don't have the serial cable connected yet as I wanted to just get a green LED before I snaked through the case and soldered down the serial cable. I'm at a loss with what to do. Can you help me out?

Thanks,

Mike
 
Mike,

It sounds like you have all your LEDs in backwards. If you look at the top of the LED you will see that one of the sides is flat and the other (the one with the long lead) is round. Now if you look on the board there is a line next to one of the holes for the LED, the lead of the LED on the flat side should go into the hole on the board with the line near it.

On your meter you should have it set to read DC volts, then put the common (or negative) lead on the center pin of the regulator the put the + lead on each of the other two legs in turn. If everything is working correctly you should see the input voltage of the AC adapter on one leg and +5v on the other.

I have a feeling that it is just that your LED is in backwards.

Eric


Eric,

I'm somewhat at a loss as to how to test the regulator. I'm somewhat of a hack when it comes to using my multi-meter. I thought I could test the powersupply by probing the inside of the power jack (from the adapter) with the red lead and the outside with the black lead but I get nothing. I'm not 100% sure my multi-meter is working.

What should I probe on the regulator and how? I didn't realize the LEDs had a particular orientation. I oriented them all with the longer lead nearer the "LEDX" label on the silk-screen (ie. all the long leads are towards the regulator. Is this right or wrong?

Thanks for the help.

Mike
 
Eric,

Yeah, after I looked a little closer I noticed the LED profile on the silk-screen. So far so good. My digitemp software seems to detect all the coupler devices within the hub. I just need to re-wire up some probes to see if its really working.

Thanks for the help.

Mike
 
Back
Top