Need some guidance

tyroiii

Member
Okay, I'm stuck here... Any suggestions and thoughts would be greatly appreciated...

I recently tried a sampling of UPB devices and liked it a great deal. As I started to move switches around the apartment to make sure it works everywhere before I purchase more devices, I noticed that most switches do not have the neutral wire in the J-Box... For some strange reason switches that I used during testing had neutral wires. So, here's where I think my choices are:

1) Wire neutral lead to all switches (expensive and I just finished painting...)
2) Get Z-Wave
3) Give up

I really want to go do the Z-Wave route, but they just don't seem to have the multiple controller switch that UPB or Insteon had. I wanted to have fully control of the lights in my living room. I know they the remote, but that can easily be lost. What has everyone's experience been with Z-Wave. I know there are a few peopel here really pushing it, but I'd like to hear the negative experiences. Are there any pitfalls with the switches that do not need a neutral lead?

Thanks.
 
What controller are you using? If it is an Elk then you could mix UPB and Z-wave based on the switch location and have the best of both worlds.
 
upstatemike said:
What controller are you using? If it is an Elk then you could mix UPB and Z-wave based on the switch location and have the best of both worlds.
Right now, I am not planning on getting a controller for just lighting control. Eventually, when I get into security and HT setup, I would look into a controller.
 
Your problem is not unique. I understand that there are several swtiches/dimmers that do not required neutral wire, but I have not checked specifically for UPB. Some other Cocooners might tell you about specific models.
 
elcano said:
Your problem is not unique. I understand that there are several swtiches/dimmers that do not required neutral wire, but I have not checked specifically for UPB. Some other Cocooners might tell you about specific models.
Smarthome makes switches that does not require a neutral wire, but it's for X10. I had wanted to avoid that.
 
Intermatic is supposed to be coming out with a line of stuff which includes a Z-wave multi button switch. Date is set for Q1
 
All UPB switches require a neutral. Tyroiii: Are you sure there is no other neutral available in the box (maybe tucked deep behind others)? Another thing to check - in the box(s) that do not have a neutral - is there an outlet below it? A quick fix is to pull a neutral from the outlet below (outlets always have a neutral). This will not disturb your drywall or paint. I did this for 1 location that did not have a neutral.

It is disappointing to find a technology that meets your needs, then run into issues implementing it - welcome to the exciting world of DIY HA! If you like UPB, I would consider upstatemikes advice - even without a dedicated controller - you should be able to run a PC with your favorite HA software and use both UPB and Zwave. Sometimes a mixed environment is the best answer.
 
Steve: A few of the switches does have nearby outlets, but they are not on the same circuit. Is it safe to pull a neutral from a different circuit? I would still be stuck with 2 outlets that I need to completely rewire, which isn't as bad, but I would still like to avoid.
 
It will work but I am not sure if you are creating hazards by doing this. If I were you I would make sure that you pull it from the same circuit that is feeding that device with the hot. Chances are the neutral is going right to the light fixture or device being controlled (fan, light, recepticle). Make sure you use the correct wire size for the circuit.
 
I am certainly not an expert but I did ask a master electrician friend before I did anything. If he would do it in his own house then it was good enough for me. He said it was fine and that all neutrals from all circuits come together anyway.
 
tyroiii said:
Is it safe to pull a neutral from a different circuit?
Two instances where it may not be safe:

If the current drawn through the light was high, and the other circuit had a high load on it as well, the current through the neutral could easily exceed what the wire was rated for. As an example, if both circuits were 15 amps, and the light drew 10 amps (that's awfully high: 1200 watts) you could have 25 amps through the neutral, which is not protected by a breaker.

Well, the second is not really a safety issue, but if either circuit was ground-fault-protected, this would be seen as a fault and the breaker would trip whenever you turned on the light.

BTW: All two-way powerline protocols require a neutral to communicate. So only one-way X10 and the RF protocols can get away with two-wire switches.

BTW2: The ZWave 2-wire switches have the problem that if the light bulb burns out (if there's only one light bulb) or the light is turned-off locally, the switch has no power and any nodes that route through that switch are incommunicado.
 
Do you mean that the ZWave 2-wire switch will only work if there is current flowing through it? That means that if it is off, it will not receive signals or any break in the circuit will cause this problem.

I better hope that none of my recessed lighting is wired serially...
 
Let me clarify:

A two wire switch, whether it is X10 or ZWave, gets its power through the light it is controlling.

If the switch is off, the tiny amount of power that the switch is using is flowing through the filament of the bulb.

If the switch is on, it steals a tiny amount of power from the bulb, usually by delaying the turn-on of the triac for a few hundred microseconds after each zero-crossing.

If the bulb burns out, the switch no longer has a source of power.

Recessed lighting is always wired in parallel (afaik), and you almost never have all of your bulbs burn out at once. You should be fine.
 
rocco said:
If the current drawn through the light was high, and the other circuit had a high load on it as well, the current through the neutral could easily exceed what the wire was rated for. As an example, if both circuits were 15 amps, and the light drew 10 amps (that's awfully high: 1200 watts) you could have 25 amps through the neutral, which is not protected by a breaker.

Well, the second is not really a safety issue, but if either circuit was ground-fault-protected, this would be seen as a fault and the breaker would trip whenever you turned on the light.

.......

BTW2: The ZWave 2-wire switches have the problem that if the light bulb burns out (if there's only one light bulb) or the light is turned-off locally, the switch has no power and any nodes that route through that switch are incommunicado.
The current drawn through the light already has a return path (neutral) that would handle the load of the light. The neutral that you would be adding would only handle the current required to drive the UPB controller, which should be in the mA range (might be documented somewhere). For is related to overload safety, the extra current that is going to be added to the other circuit is negligible. It is not going to load the nearby outlet's neutral in any way. However, as rocco says, if the circuit is ground-fault protected, the circuit might notice this difference. I'm attached a diagram with the current explained - as I understand that they would work.

About the 2-wire switches, if the circuit breaks in any way (as roco explained just above) the controller is going to stop working regardless of it being Z-Wave, or X-10.
 

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