new alarm?

wkearney99

Senior Member
I had an 'alarm system' installed for the new house but company was such a parade of idiots that I gave up on actually getting it activated.  It's a Concord 4, with several hard-wired door, smoke and PIR sensors, along with an in-wall speaker/siren and a cellular unit in the attic.  I don't care to figure out how to untangle whether it's installer locked or not.  From what I've read it's not going to be all that great even if I did get it integrated.
 
So whose panels should I consider as an alternative? 
 
Re-using the existing hardwired gear would be ideal, of course.  
 
It depends on you Bill.
 
and
 
well and your security alarm knowledge base (and budget) and maybe or not maybe automation integration knowledgebase in your noggin reading the forums here.
 
Over the last couple of years I see you (Bill) can do just about anything and what you cannot do you subcontract to do.
 
Yeah, I know, but there's a ton of stuff being developed lately that's got more options than what this low-end panel will support.  I can either beat my head against the wall 'making it work' or I can punt and just buy my way into something more versatile.  Sure, I'd be tossing the expense on these out, but my time has value.  Sunk costs are gone, time to move on.  Sometimes it's less hassle to spend one's way out of a problem.
 
Are the 2gig panels worth investigating?
 
I do intend to use a monitoring service, but would prefer to handle all the install myself.  I'm sick of subcontractors getting paid to get it wrong...
 
I personally do not know anything about 2Gig alarm panels.
 
I do know that Nortek purchased 2Gig in 2013 for $135 million.
 
Their stock price has gone down a bit over the last year.
 
nortek.png
 
I'm far from an expert on the 2Gig panels.  But when I considered them in the past, they seemed rather limited to me for anyone who wants to do home automation with anything other than Z-wave.
 
Some things I didn't like about the panels:
 
- The panel is integrated with the main touch screen. That limits expansion capability.  And I'd rather not have the panel be in a prominent location like where you'd place the touch screen.
- It's primarily a wireless system. Supports only 2 hardwired zones.
- Only 2 hardwired outputs.
 
It's nice that it has Z-wave capability built in, but if you have other automation technology, then the 2Gig isn't going to be a good fit.
 
You have me looking some more at Nortek.
 
Found this article posted in November, 2015.
 
Wall Street Reacts to Negative Nortek Q3 Numbers; AVC Sales Drop 36.8%
 
Posted on November 5, 2015
 
by Ted
 
Company Blames Declines on ‘Negative Impact’ of United Technologies Unsuccessful Acquisition Bid
 
Surprisingly, the Nortek AVC division saw sales drop an astonishing 36.8% to $30.1 million – well off the $47.6 million in the quarter last year – in the wake of the spin-off of TV One and the company’s exit from commercial AV businesses.
 
Nortek is the parent company of Core Brands, a holding company of several significant custom integration brands, such as Niles, Elan, SpeakerCraft, Xantech, etc. In our analysis of Nortek’s previous second quarter report, we noted troubling red flags that had emerged. The smoke started rising in the fiscal first quarter, when the company disclosed that it was seeing a dramatic drop-off in orders from a key partner for its CAS (custom air solutions) segment – a “major semiconductor capital equipment customer.” It was, therefore, disappointing, but not a huge surprise that the company announced in their Q2 report that they will be forced to restructure the division, apparently not expecting that customer’s business to revive.
 
If the news from the company had stopped there in Q2, then they would probably have emerged unscathed. But then two nasty surprises were disclosed: 1) the RCH business unit (residential and commercial HVAC) had experienced a “temporary operational setback” related to some kind of shipment snafu from a third-party logistics provider that flattened sales and drove the unit to book a loss; and perhaps even more significantly, 2) the SCS (security and control solutions) segment, in the past the primary growth engine for the company, had unexpectedly booked both sales and profit declines of double-digit percentages. The company attributed this to “a difficult comparison” with the previous year.
 
The reaction to the Q2 report from Wall Street was swift and brutal – within a matter of hours, the company’s stock price had dropped 6%. Since the beginning of this year, Nortek has seen the total market value of the company decline by almost a third, as its stock price has dropped a total of 30%.
 
There were other surprising disclosures in the previous Q2 report, though not necessarily as nasty. These other disclosures included the fact that AVC (audio, video, and control) – a separate reporting unit but not considered a core segment by the company – was still apparently challenged, showing sales declines and losses…although the losses had diminished.
 
The company announced it had decided to restructure AVC after receiving an unsolicited offer from the management of TVOne to spin-off the unit. So Nortek essentially gifted the division to management, as it received no money…or in corporate-speak…sold to management for “no substantial cash consideration received.” BUT, the company also announced that in addition to the TVOne spin-off, it would also: 1) merge Gefen into Core Brands; and 2) exit the commercial AV business.
 
The Story Continues in Q3 (2015)
 
So turning to the third quarter report, we see more results – and learn more details – about rapidly unfolding events. Some may conclude that the situation is a deteriorating one, although company management would likely try to reassure you that they are on top of the situation.
 
“Nortek’s third-quarter net sales decreased 3.9% year-over-year, excluding acquisitions, divestitures and the impact of foreign exchange translation, and adjusted EBITDA, on the same basis, was down 3.7%,” said President and Chief Executive Officer Michael J. Clarke in a prepared statement. “Solid performance in our Custom Air, Ergonomics and Air Quality businesses was offset by lower sales and profitability in our HVAC and Security segments. During the quarter, we believe that the receipt of an unsolicited proposal to acquire the Company, related market rumors and activity related to the Company’s review of strategic alternatives had a negative impact on our business, employees and customers, primarily in our HVAC segment and to a lesser extent in our Security and Custom Air segments. We have ended all such activity, and we are working to put the uncertainties and the distraction related to this issue behind us. Rebuilding our momentum in the company, particularly in HVAC, will take some time. As a result, we have revised our full-year 2015 financial guidance.”
 
Besides sales and net profit declines in the third quarter this year, the company also saw declines in gross profit – both in dollars, and in percentage of sales. Operating earnings as well, declined from $33.4 million in 2014 to $14.9 million, or a drop of 55.4%.
 
What Investors Expected
 
These numbers are all well below what Wall Street was expecting. According to StreetInsider.com, the net loss of $14.4 million works out to a loss of $0.90 per share. Analysts were forecasting earnings per share of $0.52, meaning the final result was $1.42 per share below the consensus.
And although the company had booked Q3 sales of $618.5 million, the consensus forecast from analysts had expected Nortek’s Q3 sales to come in at $654.1 million…a significant miss. That makes this new Q3 result the second consecutive quarter where actual performance fell short of Wall Street’s expectations.
 
Four Segments Decline
 
But this was not all that had investors concerned, the new report seemed to show deterioration in the performance of more of the company’s business segments. Ironically, the CAS segment – the original culprit – appears to have rebounded based on their reorganization. But four other segments seem to face more or new challenges.  These four segments – AQH (air quality & home solutions), SCS, RCH, and AVC – showed flat or significant sales declines…and all showed profit declines, with RCH and AVC generating operating losses.
In a deeper dive analysis by management on each of these segments, we learned things may be worse than originally thought. Especially in the case of SCS, the former golden child is starting to look more like a problem child.
 
#2 of a 1-2 Punch
 
The RCH HVAC business was also impacted by the recent news that United Technologies was in discussions to acquire Nortek. In a conference call with analysts, Clarke noted that the potential acquirer (he refused to say the name United Technologies) was a direct competitor to the company’s HVAC segment and the widely spread news of the potential sale of Nortek caused customers to pull back or even switch their business to other companies, like United Technologies.
 
Clarke acknowledged that the company lost “share of the wallet” with these customers. “The company mentioned in the [Wall Street Journal] article is one of our major competitors in HVAC,” Clarke said. “We haven’t lost any customers, but our ‘share of wallet’ was definitely affected.”
Clarke had to admit, “It will take some time to win back this business.” With this being the case, the HVAC business is expected to remain flat the rest of this year and on through the entire of 2016.
 
SCS – The Golden Child Becomes a Problem Child
 
Maybe even more concerning is the new details we’ve learned about the problems now vexing the Security and Control Solutions segment. In their Q2 report, management claimed the sales and profit declines were the result of  “a difficult comparison to the prior year when we shipped a large concentration of orders in the second quarter of 2014.”
 
In Q3, SCS segment sales declined to $94.1 million or almost 10% below $104.2 million in the quarter last year. Operating earnings dropped as well, coming in at $7.1 million this year, a $5.7 million or 44.5% decline from the $12.8 million in operating earnings booked in the quarter last year.
 
Now management tells us that this drop in the third quarter is the result of declining orders by a couple of significant OEM customers. That, to us, seems materially different than blaming “a difficult comparison” as they did in Q2.
 
Remember that the company acquired Numera (a PERS provider) in June of this year to beef up the SCS segment. Numera is in these numbers, but “did not contribute any significant amount to net sales in the third quarter…”
 
“We continue to see a choppiness in orders with our largest OEM customers,” Clarke told analysts.
Management says they are trying to continue to diversify the customer base in the SCS segment. They also note that, other than the sales declines of the two large OEM customers, sales actually increased 4% with all other SCS dealers.
 
Management says they are trying to continue to diversify the customer base in the SCS segment. They also note that, other than the sales declines of the two large OEM customers, sales actually increased 4% with all other SCS dealers.
 
The company as well, is set to introduce a new product line, Go-Control 3 at CES. They have high hopes for this new line, which, Clarke told analysts, has a great pull-through to ancillary products with each console sold.
 
Bill,
 
You need to look at the quality of the install and how much you'd need to consider "touching" to get it up to speed or if there's any issues with the install to determine whether or not the PIR's and related are worth keeping.
 
I'm not a fan of the GE/UTC/Interlogix (or whoever they call themselves this fiscal). Basically, a lot of their products came from acquisition (Caddx/Networx, ITI, ESL, etc.) and none were original designs. Basically the same across their entire offering/lines. Your unit may be serviceable so it's up to you if you wanted to keep it or what portions can be reused (the cell would be the first item I'd investigate).
 
2Gig is basically a mass market, toss on the wall for the RMR and hope you get long enough out of it. There were major QC issues on their panels and they had a bunch of fires or overheating issues. Really not a clean product for a residence or mid-level consideration. I'm pretty sure they pulled or the Honeywell wireless compatibility out of a lawsuit a few years back.
 
Keep in mind, the alarm industry isn't going to be bleeding edge because of UL and other reasons. I wouldn't recommend any product on the bleeding edge.
 
Integration is going to vary due to definition, but the two contenders really, without a RMR service, are going to be HAI and Elk. You can tier the install by choosing which panel you go with instead of the flagship, but Elk is going to be more budget friendly and able to integrate with more 3rd party compared to the HAI. I put HAI in the realm of the "fruit" vs Elk being the "robot". You need to decide the budget and what integration is desired and whether or not it's going to be the next level or flash updatable.
 
I put HAI in the realm of the "fruit" vs Elk being the "robot".
 
@Del
 
Can you put some meat (elaborate) into the two terms you utilized.
 
Excellent responses guys, thanks.  
 
You may well be right regarding the sensors.  I had two put in 'just because' and they're in areas that would be likely points of entry (facing basement and rear doors).  We're not in a neighborhood with any serious security problems so I'm not fanatically concerned about it.  They're there likely to only report motion when there's not supposed to be anyone in there at all (vacations, mainly).  I do not intend to run them at night while we're at home.  I'm a night owl and don't need the hassle of them tripping when I'm wandering about.  
 
I do, however, have a young child and figure it's worth having the doors making their little entry/exit beep well in advance of adolescence.  As in, be in my midnite or the door rats you out.  Better to have that all functioning now instead of when he's old enough to fake umbrage regarding trust.  Yeah, seems trivial, but parenting sometimes benefits from small steps planned well in advance.  
 
Good point about limited number of wired sensors.  Two steps forward, one step back.  I've got four hard-wired door sensors alone.
 
I'm fine with tossing it all out in favor of lesser headaches.  I'm just loathe to step back into the stone age if there's more modern solutions.
 
pete_c said:
Nortek is the parent company of Core Brands, a holding company of several significant custom integration brands, such as Niles, Elan, SpeakerCraft, Xantech, etc.
 
... in addition to the TVOne spin-off, it would also: 1) merge Gefen into Core Brands; 
 
The company as well, is set to introduce a new product line, Go-Control 3 at CES. 
 
Thanks for that.  I had no idea there were so many brands stuffed under that umbrella.  And I don't mean that in a good way.  Ugh.  
 
Also includes Furman, Panamax, Broan, Nutone, Linear, Ergotron, Omnimount, Venmar, Gibson, Proficient, Sunfire.
 
pete_c said:
I put HAI in the realm of the "fruit" vs Elk being the "robot".
 
@Del
 
Can you put some meat (elaborate) into the two terms you utilized.
 
Let me take a guess: Apple vs Google (Android).  Pretty, prepackaged and locked down vs. utilitarian, a la carte and open.
 
-Tom
 
xlurkr said:
Let me take a guess: Apple vs Google (Android).  Pretty, prepackaged and locked down vs. utilitarian, a la carte and open.
 
-Tom
Not really.  Neither are really "locked down" and both are pretty open.  In most cases you want to stick to the manufacturer for most items, for example, Leviton consoles only work on Leviton consoles and Elk consoles on Elk.  Leviton has more of an ecosystem, ELK is more limited, so you have to mix and match more. Both have various models, so check these out before deciding. 
 
ano said:
Not really.  Neither are really "locked down" and both are pretty open.  In most cases you want to stick to the manufacturer for most items, for example, Leviton consoles only work on Leviton consoles and Elk consoles on Elk.  Leviton has more of an ecosystem, ELK is more limited, so you have to mix and match more. Both have various models, so check these out before deciding. 
Not true Ano. I install both, but am far more happy with the M1 for the price point. Both are capable and can be integrated with high end products, as we have done, such as Elan, Crestron or others, with an applicable driver, however the HAI had certain limits that will never be easily changed and it's similar to the M1, but as far as 3rd party support, it's no different.
 
The main thing is the M1 has a better topology when you *truly* look at it as a whole (I can drop a serial port anywhere on the bus vs. HAI must be at the panel) and there's a bunch of items that do differentiate it compared to HAI (wireless is a biggie, as are a host of other items).
 
The big thing for HAI is you can take everything out of the big "HAI" labelled box, just like Apple, and in theory, all the products out of that box should work together reasonably easy.
 
Elk requires more thought, though the application notes and integration is pretty much spelled out on their site. There's still options to brew your own, but you need to consider the price of the EZ8, M1G and the 3 OP panels (of which, you're going to be pigeonholed if you choose wrong, compared to the M1 platform). That said, can an OPIIe do "more", sure, but to get the ability, you're looking at 3X the sticker price out of the gate.
 
Some things are better on HAI, some better on the M1; Both are older designs now.
 
M1 isn't going to be as clean as an all "HAI" boxed solution, but it's not Elk being more limited; you'll have to perform more work to integrate.
 
DELInstallations said:
Both are older designs now.
 
...you'll have to perform more work to integrate.
 
Two of the most important take-aways.  I keep hoping my procrastinating on implementing this will allow something better to evolve.  I get why there's a lot of 'stick with what works' but you'd think at least some progress would have been made.  
 
Of the two 'stone age tools' I'd be more likely to choose the Elk, mainly because of the variety of integration options. 
 
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