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New ELK M1 planning - New home

Nixer

Member
RAL said:
I'm afraid I may have sent you astray when I said all the glass break detectors I've seen are 4-wire.  Honeywell makes a line of addressable detectors that all connect together on a 2-wire loop.  They call this system V-Plex. These are usually used in commercial/industrial environments where a lot of detectors are needed and creating a simple loop saves a lot of wiring effort.
 
Unfortunately, you won't be able to use them with the M1.  You'd want the plain FG1625 instead.
No worries. I canceled my order and now looking for FG1625.
 

Nixer

Member
RAL said:
I'm afraid I may have sent you astray when I said all the glass break detectors I've seen are 4-wire.  Honeywell makes a line of addressable detectors that all connect together on a 2-wire loop.  They call this system V-Plex. These are usually used in commercial/industrial environments where a lot of detectors are needed and creating a simple loop saves a lot of wiring effort.
 
Unfortunately, you won't be able to use them with the M1.  You'd want the plain FG1625 instead.
RAL,
Thank you. I will return the V-Plex ones and get FG1625 instead. 
 

Nixer

Member
I'm having trouble getting the right surface contact sensors for the windows. These are 400 series double hung wood casement windows. I picked up some Tane contacts with 7/8" gap and I have a feeling the gap is wider and also don't align on straight line. Here is a picture of the window. As you can see the casement is really thick and is not flat. 
 
Since these are double hung windows, I'm thinking I need to install 2 contacts on window.. one on top and one at the bottom. 
 
 
I've attached couple of pictures. Any recommendation on what contacts to use and how to mount the them? Due to warranty issues, I can't go for recessed contacts.
 
Thanks!
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Nixer

Member
Anyone? The top section of the window is pretty deep and there is no place to put a wired window magnetic sensor. Can someone post pictures please? Should I go wireless for the windows? 
 

RAL

Senior Member
Nixer said:
I'm having trouble getting the right surface contact sensors for the windows. These are 400 series double hung wood casement windows. I picked up some Tane contacts with 7/8" gap and I have a feeling the gap is wider and also don't align on straight line. Here is a picture of the window. As you can see the casement is really thick and is not flat. 
 
Since these are double hung windows, I'm thinking I need to install 2 contacts on window.. one on top and one at the bottom. 
 
 
I've attached couple of pictures. Any recommendation on what contacts to use and how to mount the them? Due to warranty issues, I can't go for recessed contacts.
 

I would mount one of the Tane pills near the spot indicated by the red mark.  By placing it several inches above the sill, that would allow you to mount 2 magnets on the window, one in the fully closed position, the other with the window cracked open a couple of inches.  That way, you can have the windows open a bit when you are home and still arm the system.

You could also place the contact further up, towards to top of the lower sash if you prefer. If you place one contact near the top side edge of the lower sash, and a second contact at the lower side edge of the upper sash, that simplifies wiring a bit in that you only need to run one cable for both contacts.
 
I can't quite tell how wide that edge is - 1/2" maybe?  I would drill a small hole through the frame to run the wires.  Or, if you prefer not to drill, you could wrap the wires  around to the front of the frame, and then bury then under the moulding that will be put in place later.  Just be sure to cut a channel into the moulding so that it doesn't pinch the wires.   A little bit of the wire would remain exposed.  For the upper sash, since it is recessed more, more of the wire would be exposed.
 
Some alarm installers install only one contact, just for the lower sash, and don't bother with a second one for the upper sash. In theory, someone could lower the upper sash and climb through the top section, but they argue that no one would bother entering that way. 
 
An advantage of using wireless contacts is that you can protect both sections with a single contact by placing the contact and the magnet on the joint between the upper and lower sash.
 
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[Edit]:

Another approach that some folks here have taken is to place the contact below the sill and then place a large-gap type magnet on the window. You'd have a gap of maybe 1-1/2" that way. No contact would be visible, but the large magnet would be visible unless you are willing to embed it in the bottom of the window sash.

http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/22607-double-hung-window-sensors/#entry184868
 

Nixer

Member
RAL,
 
Thank you.
I like the idea of having two contacts close to each other in the middle section so running wires would be easy. I don't mind drilling the windows to run the wires... however I have couple of concerns with these double hung windows.
 
the frame is about 2 inches wide but it's not exactly flat so mounting the wired magnet on it is difficult. Also the casing is really thick and sits high on the sash so I'm not sure how good the contact will be. I will get some details pictures with contacts mounted on them. I actually got Tane FM-106 sensors. These have a larger gap compared to Tane pill sensors so I went with these. 
 
I have 2 double hung doors in each room. So I will have about 4 sensors per zone (2 per window) in its own zone. Do I need an EOLR 2.2k for each zone?
 
I really don't like the idea of wireless window contacts.. Aren't they bulky and unreliable? It's a single story home and all double hung windows are in front so the maximum distance between the panel and windows is about 50ft. 
 

RAL

Senior Member
Overall, my preference is for wired sensors, but in my own house, since I installed my system after the house was built, it wasn't practical to hard wire all of the windows. So I went with the Elk two-way wireless system for some of them.  

Each wired zone gets its own EOL resistor.  If you are going to wire up the two windows per room as a single zone, then you would wire the 4 contacts in series and place a single EOL resistor at the contact that is furthest from the panel.   

There are some very slim wireless sensors available. They are roughly 1" x 2" and just 1/4" high.  

Elk supports 3 wireless systems - the Elk 2-way wireless, and also systems for GE/Interlogix and Honeywell. There are slim sensors for all 3 systems.

Honeywell 5800MINI

Interlogix TX-E201  

All 3 systems work well and have good reliability.  The range is good - 50 feet wouldn't be a problem. 

The M1 monitors each sensor to make sure it is receiving periodic heartbeat signals from it and will provide a trouble message if a sensor stops reporting in.   

I used the Elk 6021 two-way wireless sensors on my windows, and am happy with them.  The batteries last several years.  When the batteries are getting low, the sensors send out a low battery warning to the M1, which in turn reports it.
 

Nixer

Member
Here is a picture of the bottom sash window sensor. As you can see there is a big gap and also they don't  align in a straight line as well. Not sure if this would be a problem. 
 
Also I got 3 cosmo-4w sensors and a cosmod-4w. I understand we connect the smoke detectors in series with the cosmod4w module connecting to ELK M1. Any help with wiring the detectors to the cosmod4w module?
 
Thanks!
 

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RAL

Senior Member
Looks like you have a gap of about 1/3" to 1/2" between the magnet and the contact.  That should be ok for the FM106.  Have you tested them to be sure that it works?
 
The smoke detectors get wired in a daisy chain, but are actually in parallel to the COSMOD4W module.  You'll need an EOL relay (System Sensor EOLR-1) connected to the last smoke, along with the 3.9K EOL resistor.
 
The wiring is pretty straight forward, as shown in the directions for the COSMOD4W.  

Connect the Power In terminals on the COSMOD4W to the M1 SAUX power if you are going to use the M1 to provide power for the smokes.  If instead you are going to use a separate aux power supply, you'll need a relay to cut off power to the COSMOD4W when SAUX does a smoke reset.
 
You'll need a couple of additional relays to activate the Smoke Trigger and CO Trigger inputs on the COSMOD4W.  I'd use Elk 924 relays (or an equivalent) for these. Connect the relay trigger input to an Elk voltage output.  Or if you have a M1XOVR or M1RB with some spare relays, you could use those directly. Then, you'll need to write a few rules to trigger those relays when the smoke or CO zone sees an alarm condition. 
 

Nixer

Member
RAL said:
Looks like you have a gap of about 1/3" to 1/2" between the magnet and the contact.  That should be ok for the FM106.  Have you tested them to be sure that it works?
 
The smoke detectors get wired in a daisy chain, but are actually in parallel to the COSMOD4W module.  You'll need an EOL relay (System Sensor EOLR-1) connected to the last smoke, along with the 3.9K EOL resistor.
 
The wiring is pretty straight forward, as shown in the directions for the COSMOD4W.  

Connect the Power In terminals on the COSMOD4W to the M1 SAUX power if you are going to use the M1 to provide power for the smokes.  If instead you are going to use a separate aux power supply, you'll need a relay to cut off power to the COSMOD4W when SAUX does a smoke reset.
 
You'll need a couple of additional relays to activate the Smoke Trigger and CO Trigger inputs on the COSMOD4W.  I'd use Elk 924 relays (or an equivalent) for these. Connect the relay trigger input to an Elk voltage output.  Or if you have a M1XOVR or M1RB with some spare relays, you could use those directly. Then, you'll need to write a few rules to trigger those relays when the smoke or CO zone sees an alarm condition. 
 
RAL, Thank you.
Yes, I tested the contacts and it looks ok. I used multimeter to test each with a magnet placed as shown in the picture. I get close to 0 up to 3/4"..I haven't connected EOL resistor yet. Do I use the one the come with the panel? What value resistors to use for windows? I have 4 contacts connected in series in some rooms and few rooms have 3 connected in series. Do I use the same value EOL resistor for all window contacts?
 
I am going to use the M1 to provide power for the smokes. I also have a battery which came with the panel. How do I use a separate AUX power supply here? Would the battery be connected as AUX?
 
I don't have  M1XOVR or M1RB with some spare relays. I will get some ELK 924 relays. Do I need 2 of these? I have the smokes/COs connected to one zone via cosmod4w and fire detectors on another zone.. I'm not getting any other sensors. 
 
COSMOD4W wiring... it only shows single detector connected to the module. I have 3 smoke/co2 cosmo-4w  detectors and daisy chain them.. do I just connect the 2nd one in series like shown in the pic? Where do I connect the EOLR? only at the last one?
 

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RAL

Senior Member
Nixer said:
RAL, Thank you.
Yes, I tested the contacts and it looks ok. I used multimeter to test each with a magnet placed as shown in the picture. I get close to 0 up to 3/4"..I haven't connected EOL resistor yet. Do I use the one the come with the panel? What value resistors to use for windows? I have 4 contacts connected in series in some rooms and few rooms have 3 connected in series. Do I use the same value EOL resistor for all window contacts?
 
I am going to use the M1 to provide power for the smokes. I also have a battery which came with the panel. How do I use a separate AUX power supply here? Would the battery be connected as AUX?
 
I don't have  M1XOVR or M1RB with some spare relays. I will get some ELK 924 relays. Do I need 2 of these? I have the smokes/COs connected to one zone via cosmod4w and fire detectors on another zone.. I'm not getting any other sensors. 
 
COSMOD4W wiring... it only shows single detector connected to the module. I have 3 smoke/co2 cosmo-4w  detectors and daisy chain them.. do I just connect the 2nd one in series like shown in the pic? Where do I connect the EOLR? only at the last one?
 
Elk uses 2.2K EOL resistors on all zones, with the exception of a 2-wire smoke zone.   These are the resistors that come with the M1 and are marked with 3 red bands.  Only one EOL resistor is used per zone, no matter whether you have 1, 2, 3, 4 or any other number of contacts wired up to form the zone.  Note that you don't have to use EOL resistors on burglar zones if you don't want to.  You can configure them on a zone by zone basis.  They provide better supervision of the zone, but require extra work to install them.
 
Below is a diagram of how to wire multiple 4-wire smokes in a proper daisy chain.  Note how the "+" wire uses 2 terminals on each detector.  Be sure to connect the wires using both screws.  Don't just loop it through one screw, or use a pig tail.  Connect one wire to each screw.
 
There are two Elk 2.2k EOL resistors required on the COSMOD4W itself.  Then you also need  a System Sensor 3.9k EOL resistor goes at the end of the daisy chain along with the EOLR-1 relay.   This resistor should come with the COSMOD4W.  There is just the one EOL relay, and it gets connected to the last smoke detector in the chain.  That way, it monitors that power is making it all the way to the end of the chain. If there is power at the last smoke detector, then that's a good indication that all the other smoke detectors are also receiving power.
 
You'll need 2 Elk 924 relays to trigger the smoke and CO inputs on the COSMOD4W.
 
Have you done a current draw calculation on your system to see if you might need an aux power supply?  The 3 smokes plus the COSMOD4W require 195 mA max (combined) in alarm condition, plus another 60mA for each of the relays (120mA total).  The M1 can provide up to 1.0A of power, so whether or not you need an aux power supply will depend on what else the panel is powering, such as keypads, M1XEP, zone expanders, motion detectors, etc.   The numbers can add up pretty fast.
 
Elk has a current draw spreadsheet to help make this simple.
 
The battery that came with the M1 is the back up battery for the M1's power supply.  If you have an aux supply, it would have its own battery.
 
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Nixer

Member
RAL,
 
Yes, the M1Gold came with 20 EOL resistors of 2.2k ohm and I had to use only 6 for the window sensors. 
 
I did some current draw calculation using the spreadsheet. My only concern is the System Sensor 5602 current draw. 5602 data sheet says 6–28VDC / 1A. I have 2 fire detectors.. so not sure if I could use them without AUX power supply.
 
Rest seems ok... 3xM1KP2 keypads (85mA each) + 10x Bosch Gen2 PIR Motion sensors(10mA each), 8x Honeywell FG-1625F Glass breakers (12mA each) and 3x System Sensor cosmo-4w with 2 relays (315mA per your calculation). 
 
So the total current draw is 906 mA. I have a total of 25 window and door sesnors... not sure how much current these draw.
Also per current plan, I will need about 15 zones (7 window sensor zones + 8 door sensors) 
 
so I need a total of 15+3+10+8+smoke/co2 (do they all go in single zone?) ~40 zones. So I need 2 zone expanders?
 
Should I not connect the System Sensor 5602 fire detectors? If I have to get an AUX power supply, which one?
 
Thanks for the cosmo-4w wiring diagram. It's very helpful!
 

RAL

Senior Member
The 5602 heat sensors don't draw any power.  They have a switch contact, just like a window sensor, that closes when the high temperature condition is detected.  The specs on the 5602 are just telling you how much voltage and current the contact itself can handle.  But those numbers don't factor in to your current draw calculation at all.
 
Similarly, the window and door sensors don't draw any power as far as the current draw calculation goes.
 
If you are willing to add the zone expanders, it's nice to have a single sensor per zone, or a group of sensors, such as windows in a single room, per zone.  That makes isolating problems and zone violations much easier to track down.
 
Adding 2 M1XINs at 65mA each will put you just over the 1A limit of the M1's power supply.
 
I didn't see an M1XEP in your list.  Are you planning on having one on your system?  It's not required, but it makes configuration of the M1 much more convenient vs using a RS232 connection.  But it adds another 300mA to the current draw calculation.  Though you could power it with the included wall wart if you don't need to use the ethernet connection during a power outage.
 
There are several options for an aux power supply.  Elk offers several options with 1A, 2A and 4A outputs.  Altronix also has many good models.  I like the Altronix AL400ULPD8, which is a 4A supply.  It's more than you may need right now, but allows room for growth.  You can often find these on eBay for less than list price. 
 

Nixer

Member
RAL said:
The 5602 heat sensors don't draw any power.  They have a switch contact, just like a window sensor, that closes when the high temperature condition is detected.  The specs on the 5602 are just telling you how much voltage and current the contact itself can handle.  But those numbers don't factor in to your current draw calculation at all.
 
Similarly, the window and door sensors don't draw any power as far as the current draw calculation goes.
 
If you are willing to add the zone expanders, it's nice to have a single sensor per zone, or a group of sensors, such as windows in a single room, per zone.  That makes isolating problems and zone violations much easier to track down.
 
Adding 2 M1XINs at 65mA each will put you just over the 1A limit of the M1's power supply.
 
I didn't see an M1XEP in your list.  Are you planning on having one on your system?  It's not required, but it makes configuration of the M1 much more convenient vs using a RS232 connection.  But it adds another 300mA to the current draw calculation.  Though you could power it with the included wall wart if you don't need to use the ethernet connection during a power outage.
 
There are several options for an aux power supply.  Elk offers several options with 1A, 2A and 4A outputs.  Altronix also has many good models.  I like the Altronix AL400ULPD8, which is a 4A supply.  It's more than you may need right now, but allows room for growth.  You can often find these on eBay for less than list price. 
 
RAL,
Thanks again!
 
The list just keeps growing!! 
I like the ethernet interface so yes, I will get an M1XEP and use it with included wall supply.
 
Do I need a power supply with distribution module? I see 4,8 and 16 outputs... If I want to add 2 zone expanders with what I have currently, what is the minimum outputs I need.
 
Is it possible to add 2 M1XINs  to M1's 1A power supply? The total draw would be 1.03Amps..  
 
 

RAL

Senior Member
Nixer said:
RAL,
Thanks again!
 
The list just keeps growing!! 
I like the ethernet interface so yes, I will get an M1XEP and use it with included wall supply.
 
Do I need a power supply with distribution module? I see 4,8 and 16 outputs... If I want to add 2 zone expanders with what I have currently, what is the minimum outputs I need.
 
Is it possible to add 2 M1XINs  to M1's 1A power supply? The total draw would be 1.03Amps..  
 
With the two M1XINs, you're just a bit over the limit, but that's a worst case number when everything is drawing power at once.  That wouldn't be the normal state. but could happen in an alarm condition if every component was drawing its maximum power.  You might be able to squeak by without an aux power supply.
 
Good design practice (and my preference) is not to push things right to the limit, but to leave some head room.  I usually try and keep the loads to around 80 to 90% of the maximum allowed. It requires more work  and a bit more cost up front, but avoids headaches when things don't work as they should.
 
A multi-output power distribution board isn't required, but makes things a bit neater and easier to wire up.  One advantage is that each output has it's own fuse, so if a short develops somewhere down the line, it will take down part of your system, but not all of it. 
 
4, 8 , or 16 outputs is up to you.  On my system, I divided things up by the type of load.  One output for motion detectors, another for glass break sensors, etc. 8 outputs was sufficient for my system.
 
If you find a real bargain on a 4-output Altronix power supply, you can always swap the distribution board for a larger one later.  The boards are often on eBay for $10-$20.
 
There's a choice of fuses or PTCs on the distribution boards.  Fuses are usually the better choice for a residential installation.
 
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