New Home Alarm Panel and Pre-wire

I have a copy of the NFPA72, I obtained a Nevada State Fire Marshal Certificate of Registration type F for Fire Alarm Protective Signaling Systems, I also have a Nevada photovoltaics installer license and soon in may I will be getting my Electrician's license from the State of Nevada.

There is no need to go into credentials or education we all know what we know by education or experience in one way or another. But I must say this...

when it comes to 2 wire 4 conductors fire loop you are dead on wrong and against code.
Section 6.4.2.2.2 of your NFPA 72 book says, "where CLASS A circuits (not class D there is no such thing) are installed, the outgoing and return conductors must be physically separated to prevent total failure of the circuit ...." that means you CAN NOT install a 4 conductor cable.

Its recommended a separation of one foot where run vertically and four feet where run horizontally.

There is one exception to Class A requirements, outgoing and return conductors can be together within 10 feet of a device, appliance (not a kitchen appliance, a notification appliance ex. a siren) or equipment.

The EOL is designed to provide a path for monitoring current. So the occurrence of an open or ground will be detected and reported. Most signaling line circuits (meaning addressable devices) do not require the use of an EOL since they monitor by polling devices rather than current. Class A circuits require a separate pair of return conductors from the last device to the control unit in order to provide power and signaling for the entire circuit under a fault condition. However the circuit must contain special controls that sense the fault conditions and provide power and communications in two directions ( meaning you can have missing device/s but the others will be operational).

All that means... by having the EOL supervision at the last device you could maintain the integrity of the rest of your circuit (if designed for it) and it will allow you to find a faulty device or fault condition in the field, by splitting your circuits in halves or sections and testing with your meter which is another ball game.

Most security control panels with fire capabilities use a 2 conductor cable that supplies both power and signal (class "B") or a 4 conductor cable 2 wires for signal 2 for wires for power (somewhat Class A) and looking at my elk's diagrams it shows both UL listed "EOL supervision Relay" and a 2.2k ohm resistor installed at the last device not the panel which is consistent with figure A.5.4.7("B") Wiring Arrangements for 4 wire detectors page 72-132 on the latest edition NFPA 72 book.


Thats why when it comes to fire alarm and in order to be code compliant, i would never advice anyone to mess with all this theory unless you hire a professional. Stick to a) wireless smoke/heat detectors b)use 110V detectors with the disadvantage of not being able to monitor those with your alarm or c) 1 wire 2 conductor detectors.

The NFPA72 has nothing to do with security systems at all, it only says that security systems could be combined with a fire control panel if it's listed for that purpose. Only the fire capabilities of the alarm panel have to follow NFPA72.

Now back to security, a simple 1 wire 2 conductors circuit for security is what most people do, specially someone that does not have the experience or knowledge like we have. For 1 wire 2 conductor supervision for security it's recommended installing the EOL In a manner that is accesible etc, hence my misinterpretation of what you said as far as location or placement in places that later you can't get to.

A double EOL for a 1 wire 2 conductor circuit is another option. Many control panels (ELK, Ademco, DSC) support them.
it would be another way to do accomplish what a 4 conductor circuit could do allowing you to monitor 4 states (short, 2.2k ohms, 4.4k ohms, open, page 9 of the Elk's manual).

This post was created by someone that needed advice on wiring, someone trying to do some DIY work, if we start adding more complexity to what he is trying to do then we are failing to provide useful real life information for his particular application.

In the end, EOL supervision could be done in any way you want but it is a subject that can not be treated equally for fire and burglary applications, and it's dependent on the end user's application, residential or commercial and industrial may have different requirements when it comes to supervising your circuit status.

Let's keep it simple for those who need simple help and then elaborate if more info or details are requested.
 
Just stating the truth of the matter, and your citations are for fire alarm and not a form A burglar circuit. 72 was alluded to as UL is moving their designations to harmonize with the NFPA documentation, but the majority of guys are familiar with a form A circuit and a form C circuit.

As a FYI for credentials, I presently carry a NICET 3 Fire alarm certification, working on a few more elements for my NICET IV,so I'm sure you know what's involved to be a NICET IV for fire systems, and for my state, a L contractor (low voltage, 25V/5A, alarm signalling only) a C license (combo, 48V, telcom included) OSHA 30, CEDIA, NBFAA, and to really be a pisser, I am a tier IV tech support technician (1 of 3 total in the nation) for Honeywell Life Safety group, the manufacturer, working for Integrated Systems, which is networked fire panels and PC head end integration, so in your neighborhood, I'm the guy that had to fix the setup for Carson City legislative and their fire monitoring setup using the Onyx PC and related network hardware, so SLC and all that aren't a huge deal when you're dealing with critical sites like Nasa or Groom Lake and dealing with the ARCnet protocols and Eschelon network hardware and proper wiring as well.

I deal with fire marshals and AHJ's all the time, so I'm not a stranger to how it's supposed to be done correctly and which codes are going to be referenced, because, unfortunately, when it starts rolling downhill, I'm the guy that gets sent into these places to make it work and pass code, of which, 72 is only one of them.

So no offense, I don't need to be told that I'm doing it incorrectly or don't know what I'm talking about, because truth be told, I'm the guy on the phone that you're calling when you can't figure out why the hardware or something else isn't working properly on that multimillion (or billion) dollar project you're speaking about and can't be down because they're going to be on firewatch or evac a whole hospital campus like the Mayo Clinic.
 
Just stating the truth of the matter, and your citations are for fire alarm and not a form A burglar circuit. 72 was alluded to as UL is moving their designations to harmonize with the NFPA documentation, but the majority of guys are familiar with a form A circuit and a form C circuit.

As a FYI for credentials, I presently carry a NICET 3 Fire alarm certification, working on a few more elements for my NICET IV,so I'm sure you know what's involved to be a NICET IV for fire systems, and for my state, a L contractor (low voltage, 25V/5A, alarm signalling only) a C license (combo, 48V, telcom included) OSHA 30, CEDIA, NBFAA, and to really be a pisser, I am a tier IV tech support technician (1 of 3 total in the nation) for Honeywell Life Safety group, the manufacturer, working for Integrated Systems, which is networked fire panels and PC head end integration, so in your neighborhood, I'm the guy that had to fix the setup for Carson City legislative and their fire monitoring setup using the Onyx PC and related network hardware, so SLC and all that aren't a huge deal when you're dealing with critical sites like Nasa or Groom Lake and dealing with the ARCnet protocols and Eschelon network hardware and proper wiring as well.

I deal with fire marshals and AHJ's all the time, so I'm not a stranger to how it's supposed to be done correctly and which codes are going to be referenced, because, unfortunately, when it starts rolling downhill, I'm the guy that gets sent into these places to make it work and pass code, of which, 72 is only one of them.

So no offense, I don't need to be told that I'm doing it incorrectly or don't know what I'm talking about, because truth be told, I'm the guy on the phone that you're calling when you can't figure out why the hardware or something else isn't working properly on that multimillion (or billion) dollar project you're speaking about and can't be down because they're going to be on firewatch or evac a whole hospital campus like the Mayo Clinic.

with all your credentials I find hard to believe that you put your EOL resistors at the panel.

good luck to you
 
It's a shame that you didn't go back an re-read what was said, as I never said EOLR's were installed in the panel, across a zone, or anything but proper wire supervision.

I stated that there are other methods of wiring and maintaining proper EOLR supervision that also meet code and make service and future additions/modifications easier to accomplish.

I'm sure with your credentials, with more time in the field, I hope you'll see other ways that wiring can be done properly and effectively rather than how you are used to doing it or see it done.

I'll invite you to Carson City's legislative buildings when I'm out there next with the marshal and UL completing the handover and certificate issuing on the job and I'll show you a bunch of wiring methods with them so you can see a few new things.
 
It's a shame that you didn't go back an re-read what was said, as I never said EOLR's were installed in the panel, across a zone, or anything but proper wire supervision.

I stated that there are other methods of wiring and maintaining proper EOLR supervision that also meet code and make service and future additions/modifications easier to accomplish.

I'm sure with your credentials, with more time in the field, I hope you'll see other ways that wiring can be done properly and effectively rather than how you are used to doing it or see it done.

I'll invite you to Carson City's legislative buildings when I'm out there next with the marshal and UL completing the handover and certificate issuing on the job and I'll show you a bunch of wiring methods with them so you can see a few new things.

I dont need to, as an IBEW union member I have worked for companies doing multibillion dollar projects like City Center, Las Vegas Water Reclamation District and the new Cosmopolitan Casino, just to name a few.

Maybe you should read what you wrote, quote ....

Wiring a 2 wire fire loop using 4 conductor simply allows you to install the EOLR in the panel by bringing the entire loop back to the panel on the second pair of wires on a 4/18 or whatever you pulled that has at least 4 conductors. If you have a 4 wire fire loop, you'd pull 4 back to the panel, then install the supervision relay and EOLR at the panel. Just extending the wires from the last device to the panel electrically. The proper term, if the panel supported the return, would be a Class D fire loop. All I'm doing is making the legs of the resistor very long by backfeeding the 2 wire or 4 wire fire loop back to the panel.

end quote


there is no class D and you clearly stated installing the supervision relay and EOLR at the panel along with running 4 conductor wire for a fire loop.


like I said, good luck. Im done with this nonsense
 
I'd appreciate it if we could get back on topic. The only fire system I have is the 110v smoke detectors that the electrician installed for code compliance. What wiring and equipment would I need to monitor these with an alarm panel? I have a huge attic, so it's not a pain to put things where they should be.

Would something like an "Elk 28-Inch Universal Structured Wiring Panel SWB-28" (assuming an ELK board, sorry I can't post links yet) be a good choice? Would it have enough room for all the expansion boards for the zones I need? This would be for the alarm panel and related systems. I will probably be using a wall mounted rack for my other communications cables (RG6, Cat 6, etc).
 
I suggested you choose the control panel manufacturer/model before the install, so the vendor/distributor could help with wiring questions. ;)

And as others have said, if you wire the KPs with ethernet-type cable (cat5e or cat6) AND 22/4, possibly more than 1 of each, you'll be covered for KP wiring. Contact wiring is the same for all panels, with the exception of the EOLR (if you choose to use them).

Some people put contact sensors on each side of overhead garage doors.

I suggest you run an ethernet cable to everything you may want to control in the future - thermostats, irrigation controller, doorbell(s), TVs, garage door switches or openers.

I have plans to install flood sensors, to be connected with the alarm. They use 22/4. Behind washing machine, near the water heater, behind dishwasher, behind toilets, below sinks, maybe behind the fridge. Near condensate lines for HVAC, or in the pans below.

You may want to wire for a distributed audio system - speakers on the deck, in the garage, kitchen, master bathroom.

I'm not sure how to wire the line voltage smokes to the alarm panel - several threads cover that, search for it. I currently have redundant smokes, LV and line voltage.

Edit - many people don't use an enclosure, but a piece of plywood on the wall. Allows for more flexibility.
 
I'd appreciate it if we could get back on topic. The only fire system I have is the 110v smoke detectors that the electrician installed for code compliance. What wiring and equipment would I need to monitor these with an alarm panel? I

Good idea getting back on topic! ;)

I don't use an NFPA72, NIC, NEC, Ei Ei O certification solution, but I did not want to break any builder/original install system with my seven 110v detectors so I just replaced one with a GE350cx.

This one detector comes provided with a contact closure that I monitor. Now when any of the smoke alarms go off I'm notified and the nice thing about this is I did not have to disturb the original setup!

Kiddie also makes one as well and if you do a search you should be able to find it.
 
Some people put contact sensors on each side of overhead garage doors.
What's the benifit of that configuration?

I suggest you run an ethernet cable to everything you may want to control in the future - thermostats, irrigation controller, doorbell(s), TVs, garage door switches or openers.
I hadn't thought about the doorbell or garage door switches. Good idea. What all can be done with the doorbell connected to the panel?

Edit - many people don't use an enclosure, but a piece of plywood on the wall. Allows for more flexibility.
I can understand plywood in an unfinished basement, but this is a mechanical room inside the living area of the house. Would that pass inspection?

Good idea getting back on topic! ;)

I don't use an NFPA72, NIC, NEC, Ei Ei O certification solution, but I did not want to break any builder/original install system with my seven 110v detectors so I just replaced one with a GE350cx.

This one detector comes provided with a contact closure that I monitor. Now when any of the smoke alarms go off I'm notified and the nice thing about this is I did not have to disturb the original setup!...
That sounds like a good idea, the detectors won't be installed till the electrician does his trim out, so substituting one should be simple.
 
One way to break into an overhead garage door is to push in 1 side. Unlikely, but if you're paranoid, then you could consider it.

Many users here choose plywood. I don't know if it would pass inspection, but I would think so. I am going with enclosures myself, but people who choose plywood seem very happy with their choice.

I suggest contact sensors on the overhead garage doors, as well as sensors on the interior garage doors(s). This offers you the option of one or the other, or both. Historically, overhead garage doors had lots of false alarms, and garages were not routinely included in the alarmed area. Wide-gap contacts designed for overhead doors, I think, have fixed the problem (mostly), but I lack the experience to say for sure.
 
that is correct I agree with leaving your existing smokes for code compliance and add the GE smoke with the contact
I'm gonna do the same since my house has too many already installed by the builder.
I will be posting the mic of my GE garage door sensor and where I got it etc
My garage sensor is wide gap and designed to be mounted on the vertical track, the magnet comes with a bracket that gives you 2 angles or mounting heights and it attaches directly to the door.
 
Sorry to have stirred up the EOL debate. Perhaps I didn't make my point clear enough. The easiest time to install door and window sensors is after the doors and windows are installed, but before the finish trim is put up. You can clearly install sensors after this point, but the job gets much harder and time consuming.

If you are installing sensors at that point in the construction, then it makes sense to install the EOLs if you are going to use them.

Again, this isn't to say you MUST have your hardware selected. But if you know what you want to use, then it will make the job easier. Otherwise I would recommend not using EOLs on the doors and windows. Just my 2 cents....
 
Hopefully we're past the "Mine's THIS big!" competition...
I personally like the cans for an ultra-clean look... especially with the ChannelVision smoked plexi-glass cover... it's pricey but it looks really nice.

The 28" Elk can isn't bad - I used one in my last house for Elk, Battery, 2 XSP's, XEP, Elk124 and an input expander - it was starting to get tight. I think the general rule around here is to just install the biggest one that fits. For my new house, I put a 50" can on top of the existing 20" can - now I have some room to work!

With a doorbell connected, you can go way beyond the traditional doorbell sounds... if you use a non-lighted button you can just wire it straight to a zone; if you want lighted, you tend to have to install a real doorbell then use a Doorbell Detector. I do the latter and just disable the doorbell by removing the sound plates - the actuator still fires and triggers the doorbell detector.

Fun with doorbells: you can have the doorbell now play through the system speakers instead of the doorbell; this tends to allow better coverage throughout the house (I keep a keypad in the master bedroom and near each door); you can do creative stuff like silence the doorbell when babies are sleeping; you can change the doorbell to suit the season - including Jingle Bells for holidays and a cackling witch for Halloween. There are all kinds of fun options. I hooked an Elk124 8-channel recordable module in-line with my interior speakers and that gave me 8 separate custom recorded sounds I could update whenever I wanted and trigger any time I wanted. I have a lot of fun with that one.
 
Hopefully we're past the "Mine's THIS big!" competition...
I personally like the cans for an ultra-clean look... especially with the ChannelVision smoked plexi-glass cover... it's pricey but it looks really nice.

The 28" Elk can isn't bad - I used one in my last house for Elk, Battery, 2 XSP's, XEP, Elk124 and an input expander - it was starting to get tight. I think the general rule around here is to just install the biggest one that fits. For my new house, I put a 50" can on top of the existing 20" can - now I have some room to work!

With a doorbell connected, you can go way beyond the traditional doorbell sounds... if you use a non-lighted button you can just wire it straight to a zone; if you want lighted, you tend to have to install a real doorbell then use a Doorbell Detector. I do the latter and just disable the doorbell by removing the sound plates - the actuator still fires and triggers the doorbell detector.

Fun with doorbells: you can have the doorbell now play through the system speakers instead of the doorbell; this tends to allow better coverage throughout the house (I keep a keypad in the master bedroom and near each door); you can do creative stuff like silence the doorbell when babies are sleeping; you can change the doorbell to suit the season - including Jingle Bells for holidays and a cackling witch for Halloween. There are all kinds of fun options. I hooked an Elk124 8-channel recordable module in-line with my interior speakers and that gave me 8 separate custom recorded sounds I could update whenever I wanted and trigger any time I wanted. I have a lot of fun with that one.
I like the clean look of cans too. I think I'll still go with a can for the alarm, but I don't think my communications runs (57 Cat 6 and 36 RG6) will fit, even in the two 42" Leviton cans I was planning on. Thus, I'm looking into racks, but that's another topic.

I like the idea of the doorbell coming through the keypad speakers. Just to clarify, I'd run the Cat 6 to the doorbell BOX not the buttons, right?

One other questions to throw out there: I read in a wiring guide that solid 22/2 and 22/4 is preferred over stranded, to avoid shorts caused by stray strands. What's everyone's take on this?
 
One other questions to throw out there: I read in a wiring guide that solid 22/2 and 22/4 is preferred over stranded, to avoid shorts caused by stray strands. What's everyone's take on this?
I've used both extensively. The advantage of stranded is that it is much less prone to breaking, and is more flexible. I have had solid wire break inside the insulation where you can even see, but pull on it and it comes right out. That doesn't happen very often. As long as the wire is stripped without nicking the copper, solid is fine. The advantage to solid is that it is much easier to work with. No twisting the strands to get all the little strands inside the terminal, plus, as you mentioned, those little whiskers will get you.

I much prefer solid, and cringe when I go to a site where stranded has been installed.
 
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