New house, probably go with Insteon

[Dprae]

Hello Cocoontech,
 
I'm building a new house, about 4500sq ft on three levels. Our builder's home 
automation subcontractor quoted me a price of about $45k to wire in Control4 
for audio/video and lighting. I was not impressed. What was worse was that if 
ever I wanted to swap anything out (eg. a TV, or network router, window 
shade), I'd have to make a $$ service call to them. Definitely not DYI!
So I've read a lot, especially on these forums, and I think Insteon is the 
way to go for me.
 
Here are my automation priorities:
 
1. Scene lighting (kitchen, living room), automated with triggers like 
entry/exit and garage door. An all-off in the master bedroom and exit.
 
2. Energy management: when it's in the summer and hot, I'd like the HVAC to 
be smart (I have a Nest), shades to all close, fan turns on.
 
3. Security: send me a text if the glass break or motion detectors go on. 
Integreate with my deadbolts.
 
4. Audio/Visual distribution - not a high priority on the list, but a bonus 
if it talks with the system.
 
 
Here's why I think I'm choosing Insteon:
 
1. Expandibility at a crawl, walk or run pace. I can start with kitchen lighting, then move on to dining and family room, then AV at my own pace. For Control4, I'd have to put it in all at once, or every time I get the service guy to come out and install a light switch, they'll charge an arm + leg.
 
2. Minimal programming. I have no advanced computer programming skills, although I build my own computers and tinker with my rooted Android phone. I think I can figure out ISY... ELK not so sure.
 
3. Reliable. I'm planning on making a significant investment in this, so I'd prefer to know ahead of time before I've got $10k in the system that it's buggy.
 
4. Wide active product range - it looks like Insteon products can meet all my needs.
 
 
Questions:
 
1. Is there another system that I should consider given the above requirements? Insteon sounds like the biggest, most user friendly, DIY home automation system with an active following and support.
 
2. Has Insteon ironed out it's reliability issues from the past? It sounds to me like it's much better. Because Insteon is dual band, if there is in-line power interference, then the radio band will take care of the signal right? Is this what happens practically? The more switches, the better the mesh will be?
 
3. In terms of wiring a new house, it looks like I have two essential options in terms of light switches. I can either wire everything conventionally and use on Switchlincs or Keypads instead of typical switches. Or, I can hide electrical switch boxes in closets, and have one or two gang Insteon switches to make it look nicer. The downside to the latter is that there's no going back - so basically I need to decide how far I'm going to commit myself, right? This applies to 2-way and 3-way switches too, etc.
 
4. I'm planning on skipping the Insteon hub and going right to the ISY. It looks like it will do everything I want above. I don't need Elk for my requirements right? Am I missing something important?
 
5. Here's a list of stuff to tell my electrician that I found elsewhere. Is this there anything else I'm missing?
-Neutrals in every box
-Deep electrical boxes
-Plastic boxes if possible (Is this a big deal?)
-Need to phase couple the breaker box
 
 
Thanks in advance for your advice, and for the info on this forum.

 

[pete_c]

Guessing best to work on the LV infrastructure. 
 
Prewire all your security stuff, energy management and audio visual distribution..  Add more wires and chases than you think you will need.
 
HVAC is a different animal.  A thermostat will not make your home more HVAC efficient. 
 
Read here about what some CT folks have done with new construction  / post construction updaties to HVAC.

 

[ChrisCicc]

Questions:
 
1. Is there another system that I should consider given the above requirements? Insteon sounds like the biggest, most user friendly, DIY home automation system with an active following and support.
 
2. Has Insteon ironed out it's reliability issues from the past? It sounds to me like it's much better. Because Insteon is dual band, if there is in-line power interference, then the radio band will take care of the signal right? Is this what happens practically? The more switches, the better the mesh will be?
 
3. In terms of wiring a new house, it looks like I have two essential options in terms of light switches. I can either wire everything conventionally and use on Switchlincs or Keypads instead of typical switches. Or, I can hide electrical switch boxes in closets, and have one or two gang Insteon switches to make it look nicer. The downside to the latter is that there's no going back - so basically I need to decide how far I'm going to commit myself, right? This applies to 2-way and 3-way switches too, etc.
 
4. I'm planning on skipping the Insteon hub and going right to the ISY. It looks like it will do everything I want above. I don't need Elk for my requirements right? Am I missing something important?
 
5. Here's a list of stuff to tell my electrician that I found elsewhere. Is this there anything else I'm missing?
-Neutrals in every box
-Deep electrical boxes
-Plastic boxes if possible (Is this a big deal?)
-Need to phase couple the breaker box
 
 
Thanks in advance for your advice, and for the info on this forum.

 
Some thoughts by number:
 
1) Don't think of Insteon as the "system". It's just a component. It's primary focus is on automating the electrics in your home - lighting, receptacles, some appliances, etc. There is nothing stopping you from also using other protocols for pieces, such as Z-Wave for locks and Nest for thermostats and smoke detectors. Of course, if you get the Insteon Hub it's very limited, but that's where software like our own CastleOS comes in. The "system" you refer to is really your central controller, not the protocol the devices use to talk to each other.
 
2) Insteon is very reliable. If you have line noise, have your electrician fix it. It's a new build and it shouldn't have any issues. Improper grounding is the #1 cause of issues with Insteon, and that's just poor electricians work. Again you shouldn't have that issue as it's a new build.
 
3) I would recommend a third option. Don't put switches in closets. Put them exactly where you would put them if they were not smart switches. Instead, don't interconnect multi-way switches in the traditional way. Only one switch needs to be physically connected to your lights (that's the "load"), the others are just remote controls. So instead of running extra copper to interconnect the switches, just run enough to connect it to the nearest line feed. The remote signal will still get back to the load bearing switch even though they aren't connected to each other, and you've saved the cost of dozens to hundreds of feet of copper, along with the labor needed to install it. 
 
4) See #1 above. The ISY has the same issue as the Insteon Hub - it only supports a limited number of devices. It won't grow with you beyond what it does today, especially in security/entertainment automation. 
 
5) Plastic boxes are better for wireless signals. That said, they strip too easily and metal boxes still allow wireless signals, so I always recommend metal. You do not need to phase couple with dual band devices. Also tell him to keep the grounds clean. No shortcuts, it can come back to haunt you later. 
 
Hope that helps, and welcome to the automation community! 

 

[Teken]

Key things for a successful Insteon enabled network are these.
 
1. Factory reset all devices on a bench before its installed. This will remove any possible testing modes or settings.
 
2. Enrol all devices only with the ISY series controller. Select remove all existing links as the preferred option.
 
3. Purchase filter links to take into account of noise makers / signal suckers.
 
4. Identify all common noise makers / signal suckers from the onset. Such as UPS, cell chargers, computers, CFL, LED, ballast lighting. Ideally you would add one electric device until COM's are affected which you can confirm using the ISY level 3 event logs.
 
5. Confirm coupling / bridging via the 4 tap beacon test outlined in the full users manual for each product. Do not assume because you have 200 devices you have proper coupling. Go back to reading point 4. No amount of coupling / bridging will over come noise makers / signal suckers. So identify them, filter them, or remove them.
 
6. Installing AP / range extenders in all floors, zones, areas, of the home will provide the most consistent and reliable RF to power line COM's.
 
7. The ISY can be upgraded to support Z-Wave. So you will have the benefit of using native supported X10, Insteon, and Z-wave. This will allow you to mix and match and have devices that either meet you needs or budget.
 
8. PLM: This device must not be placed on a filtered UPS, sharing a power bar with any sort of electronics. Have it plugged directly into a outlet by itself.
 
9. INSTALL: Cover all device ID's with clear tape to ensure they are protected and don't fall off. Record all the information each device on the paper manual.
 
10. UPDATE: Ensure you update the ISY to the latest firmware.
 
11. Once you have enrolled all devices linked them to scenes of your choice. Use the test scene feature in the ISY to confirm all is well. Let this operate until you're sure the install is sound. No need to add complex programming to the mix from the onset which will confuse you as to where the problem is. 

 

[Dprae]

Thanks for the tips.
 
ChrisCicc -
I had a look through CastleOS on this forum and the website. From my understanding ISY will allow me to set up automation events with a series of steps. Does CastleOS duplicate this function such that I won't need the ISY unit? Or will I need ISY and CastleOS can talk to the ISY and initiate the events? Or do they run independently?
Regarding wire, from what it sounds like, I wouldn't have any 3 way switches, only an electrical box in that area to wire up a Linc right?
 
Teken - I'm glad you commented, very helpful. Can you clarify the powerline vs RF of the Insteon devices please. You mention a lot of detail about filtering out noise makers and coupling, but also advised installing range extenders and APs. Isn't the point of RF serving as a back up to noisy power lines? Aren't they redundant systems, so if powerline doesn't get through, the RF will?

 

[wuench]

I have an Insteon house with 30 or so switches and it is about 75% reliable.   If I had to do it again I would go with something else, probably zwave as that is more widely supported across vendors.

 

[Del91574]

Some thoughts by number:
 
1) Don't think of Insteon as the "system". It's just a component. It's primary focus is on automating the electrics in your home - lighting, receptacles, some appliances, etc. There is nothing stopping you from also using other protocols for pieces, such as Z-Wave for locks and Nest for thermostats and smoke detectors. Of course, if you get the Insteon Hub it's very limited, but that's where software like our own CastleOS comes in. The "system" you refer to is really your central controller, not the protocol the devices use to talk to each other.
 
2) Insteon is very reliable. If you have line noise, have your electrician fix it. It's a new build and it shouldn't have any issues. Improper grounding is the #1 cause of issues with Insteon, and that's just poor electricians work. Again you shouldn't have that issue as it's a new build.
 
3) I would recommend a third option. Don't put switches in closets. Put them exactly where you would put them if they were not smart switches. Instead, don't interconnect multi-way switches in the traditional way. Only one switch needs to be physically connected to your lights (that's the "load"), the others are just remote controls. So instead of running extra copper to interconnect the switches, just run enough to connect it to the nearest line feed. The remote signal will still get back to the load bearing switch even though they aren't connected to each other, and you've saved the cost of dozens to hundreds of feet of copper, along with the labor needed to install it. 
 
4) See #1 above. The ISY has the same issue as the Insteon Hub - it only supports a limited number of devices. It won't grow with you beyond what it does today, especially in security/entertainment automation. 
 
5) Plastic boxes are better for wireless signals. That said, they strip too easily and metal boxes still allow wireless signals, so I always recommend metal. You do not need to phase couple with dual band devices. Also tell him to keep the grounds clean. No shortcuts, it can come back to haunt you later. 
 
Hope that helps, and welcome to the automation community! 

Disagree with a few points here, such as #3 and #5.
 
#3: The largest issue is going to be what the options are if (and when) a system is no longer being used or retrofitted. It's easy to turn back to become a "dumb" system should the house be sold or brought to a non-tech person. Turning a conventionally wired system into a smart system is far easier than having a system with 3 and 4 way circuits but no travelers installed to facilitate what happens when a technology or system goes by the wayside. Not a huge deal for the centralized load products, but for the 3rd party items, it's huge.
 
#5: You can buy the grey plastic boxes that are "quick loading" for the screws (believe Carlon?) and there is no plastic to strip out or otherwise not work with a screw; it's all metal. The issues arise with the cheapie economy boxes or the phenolic boxes. They have no provision if the screws strip out other than tapping to an 8/32 hole, but that's also very common with metal boxes. I'd suggest getting the better plastic boxes and use them before strictly going with metal as a rule, especially with mesh or interconnect dependent products.

 

[pete_c]

Many folks here also utilize the Elk M1 or the Leviton HAI for security and the added pieces for automation, HVAC (and some audio stuff).  
 
Software automation is just that.  I do stuff here with software that suppliments the automation in the Leviton panel and then some stuff that I cannot do with the panel. 
 
That said I use automation software with my Leviton OPII Panel.  I tinker a bit here and have X10, Insteon, Z-Wave, UPB and Zigbee today.  I did initiall migrate from X10 to Insteon (using the X10/Insteon) pieces to manage the inwall switches.  Here too there were many traveler wires in place for switches in metal boxes and conduit.  A couple of years ago did migrate the inwall switches all to UPB removing the Insteon in wall switches.  I did have in place most of the 2nd floor of the house at UPB anyways.
 
Over the years though while settling on UPB for my in wall switches I do mix the technologies.  I use wireless for this or for that but not totally dependant on it for my automation stuff or security stuff.
 
Updating the electrical a bit over the years added more circuits to the fuse panel getting more granular with it.  It was easy to do with conduit.  In another home build with plastic boxes et al I was able to cover most of the electric just fine and have only updated a couple of circuits in the last 10 years.
 
Mostly still here stressing the preliminary infrastructure that you want to put into place.  It is the most inexpensize part of your endeavor which can be the most expensive part of it should you want to add stuff when the walls are up.
 
Here while automation was one priority; the first thing I set up was audio everywhere (I like my music) literally wiring every room for speakers (well in wall) and controls for said speakers many years ago.  I do automate some of the audio stuff (using a Russound Zoned amps et al); I have over the years not made it a priority to manage the media with automation.  Today have the LCD TV's wired; still prefer music / audio more and do not really watch much television other than movies.
 
BTW welcome to Cocoontech DPrae. 
 
Enjoy your visit and let us know about your endeavor. It will provide to others doing the same as you.

 

[ChrisCicc]

Thanks for the tips.
 
ChrisCicc -
I had a look through CastleOS on this forum and the website. From my understanding ISY will allow me to set up automation events with a series of steps. Does CastleOS duplicate this function such that I won't need the ISY unit? Or will I need ISY and CastleOS can talk to the ISY and initiate the events? Or do they run independently?
Regarding wire, from what it sounds like, I wouldn't have any 3 way switches, only an electrical box in that area to wire up a Linc right?

 
Absolutely! You can have scheduled or triggered events with CastleOS (we don't work with the ISY, that is a competitor). We have a wizard-driven event builder, so it's much simpler to create events than with the ISY. There are also dedicated "intelligence features" that simplify some of the most common events, such as DawnGuard for turning lights off when the sun comes up, NightShield for turning lighting on when the sun goes down, EnergyEye for turning lights off when a room in unoccupied, HungryPet for automatically feeding pets, and others. 

 

[wuench]

As far as electrical boxes I really like the adjustable ones.  They are great for adjusting depth, but also if you strip out the screws or cause other damage you can always pull them all the way out of the bracket and replace them with no drywall damage.

 

[Dprae]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I'll keep you posted on the build. Since receiving the quote, I've taken pretty much everything out except for detailed prewiring. I'm sure I'll have more questions along the way, and will keep you guys updated on my progress.

 

[Teken]

Thanks for the tips.
 
Teken - I'm glad you commented, very helpful. Can you clarify the powerline vs RF of the Insteon devices please. You mention a lot of detail about filtering out noise makers and coupling, but also advised installing range extenders and APs. Isn't the point of RF serving as a back up to noisy power lines? Aren't they redundant systems, so if powerline doesn't get through, the RF will?

 
I will first give you the short answer: No, dual band from any vendor will not resolve persistent noise makers / signal suckers, ever.
 
Long answer: Of all the devices that are dual band the Access Point (AP) now called and reshaped Range Extenders offer the most range in coupling / bridging. Smartlabs recommends for every 1000 feet these devices be placed in the area of use. I can tell you from personal experience and installing over 300 sites over the last two years.
 
You will need at least four of these units in a 2000 sq ft home. Once the first two are coupled you can simply place the other two in any floor, zone, area, you need better RF to powerline COM's.
 
Currently the the product line has an effective range of 150 feet open air. Some newer devices have been upgraded to 250 feet for RF open air / line of sight.
 
In real world testing and use if a hardwired device is installed into a metal JBOX the effective range is 1-5 feet.
 
As all of the hardwired devices excluding the micro modules, DIN modules, the antenna is placed in the rear of the unit. Insteon has steadily over the years gotten much better.
 
Anyone who tells you Z-Wave has no faults or is better in terms of COM's isn't being real or honest. Both products have strengths and weakness's. But, as I stated you can at anytime upgrade your ISY to take advantage of both technologies with out fear of being stuck with one or the other.
 
That is the beauty of a hardware solution over a software only one. You also have the benefit of a low power controller instead of running some power hog application on a 24.7.365 computer system. If there was one controller you could call an investment that would be the ISY-994 Series Controller.

 

[Swancoat]

I've currently got a 'large' Insteon installation (I think 80 total devices or so), so I'll weigh in with my thoughts:
 
On the build, I agree with the others here that say, wire up the lights normally, and focus your energies on Cat5, audio or whatever. And do more of that than you think you want. Most of these lighting protocols are retrofit, so you can add them later with no issues.
 
That being said, my Insteon setup has worked pretty reliably for the last 3 years. However, lately I've been getting more and more device failures, and signal reliability is ok. (Works really well most of the time, but there's some things, like a script to shut off all the lights in the house that actually takes a while to get through all of the devices (like 15 sec)) so I'm thinking about a change.
 
I've been considering going to RadioRA2. First off, it's pretty pricey. Probably going to cost triple my Insteon setup, so that's an issue. For that cost though, you get what is widely reported as bulletproof reliability of devices and signals. Also, much nicer looking keypads/etc. Plus, Scenes can be defined with devices in the 'off' position, and from what I can tell at this stage, large scenes can be executed a little more slickly.
 
On the flip side, going to RadioRA2 may cost me some functionality (I haven't FULLY explored this yet). I've got a bunch of Insteon door sensors set up to activate nearby lights. They work really well, respond pretty much instantly, and are also pretty cheap. RadioRA2 does not seem to have a corresponding solution for this (For things like a closet, I can just keep an Insteon switch there, and use the Insteon door sensor, but some closets don't have an interior light, so I have a hallway light come on instead, and that would impractical to have Insteon with everything else RA2. There's also the solution of doing it in software (I use a Mac with Indigo for a lot of control) and have the Insteon door sensor activate an RA2 switch, but I worry about latency).
 
Also, I don't really care for the way RadioRA2 handles 3 and 4 way setups. With Insteon you wire up on dimmer directly to the load, and the rest just to line and neutral. Then you bind them together with links. Each dimmer always reflects the correct state and each dimmer can control. With RadioRA2, you wire up one dimmer to control the load directly, and for the rest, you get a simpler 'controller' dimmer (which is cheaper), and that wires to the main switch using the existing traveler wire. This is fine, but for some reason, the 'controller' dimmer does not have the same status LEDs that the regular dimmer does. So, sometimes the dimmer you're actually controlling is not actually showing you the status on the LEDs - you have to look at the 'master' dimmer to see the level. I prefer Insteon's solution. Gives more of an illusion that all the devices are peers. (Also, I can imagine an application where both dimmer/switch legs did not have a view of the load. The lack of status light would be particularly annoying there).
 
Also, so far, I can't tell if RadioRA2 even has the ability to link two devices directly, without a keypad. I have one load in my kid's playroom, and there's a separate one in the short hallway that goes to it. We almost always turn them both off or both on. So I just linked them. Now it's like 'one' load with a 3 way switch. Not sure if RadioRA2 can do that (if it can, that's the solution to the problem above... just wire it up like Insteon).

 

[Dean Roddey]

Anyone who tells you Z-Wave has no faults or is better in terms of COM's isn't being real or honest. Both products have strengths and weakness's. But, as I stated you can at anytime upgrade your ISY to take advantage of both technologies with out fear of being stuck with one or the other.
 
That is the beauty of a hardware solution over a software only one. You also have the benefit of a low power controller instead of running some power hog application on a 24.7.365 computer system. If there was one controller you could call an investment that would be the ISY-994 Series Controller.

 
Well, to be fair, anyone who tells you that the size of system required to run an automation system back end these days is some sort of monser power sucker is maybe a bit behind the times. And of course in return for a little more power usage, you get a LOT more functionality, layered over whatever hardware substrate you might choose to use (as long as the software system supports it.)
 
An ISY, though a very competent device, is not an automation system. It's a lighting system, with the ancillary things that most lighting systems tend to provide these days (relays, temp/motion sensors, etc...) A full automation system can sit above that and pull together that and various hardware (and media) of many  types and integrate them into a single system, usually with nice graphical touch screens thrown in. So, for most folks, a real automation solution isn't an either/or scenario, it's a both/and typically.
 
Certainly Z-Wave has its issues, as anyone knows who has set one up. It's very consumer level, and the variation in quality from different vendors is significant. It has also gone through a lot of growing pains, and getting the information you need to set up Z-Wave with an automation system can be painful, because the vendors tend not to publish that information despite its being very necessary. There are some folks making more pricey, higher quality stuff (like Cooper and Leviton.) I haven't compared prices but maybe by the time you get to that price, the extra safety of something like RA2 isn't much more? But I'm sure that some of the issues with Z-Wave have been due to folks buying the absolute cheapest stuff available.
 
Anyhoo, any of the consumer level systems are usually going to require a certain commitment to get them happy and keep them that way. You may get lucky and it works like a charm from the start, or you may be ever frustrated with it, or something in between. That's just the nature of the beast. A system that always works well is going to be over-engineered and never really having to operate at its limits, and that tends to cost.
 
Ultimately, if you can afford it and need to stay retrofit friendly, something like Radio RA2 with CQC over the top is a really nice option. Though of course RA2 doesn't do security at all, so if you need that then you'd have to throw in maybe an Elk or DSC. For a new build, definitely consider some sort of wired system.

 

[wuench]

I can tell you the Insteon Dual-Band stuff does not work as advertised.  [SIZE=14.4444446563721px] Don't confuse Insteon's dual-band with zwave or Zigbee's mesh technology.  It is not the same thing.  It is just a 3 hop broadcast. [/SIZE]From what I have seen, even if you have a wireless path if the PLC communication fails, Insteon is not stable.  The pure wireless stuff works well, but the dual-band seems to still be plagued by PLC powerline issues.  It may be related to the 3 hop count limit.
 
I will give you an example.  In my master suite I have around a dozen switches and keypads all dual-band.   Communication (especially scene/group commands) fail regularly.  At least one light (any one of them) in a scene fails to turn on every time I use a scene.  It is by far the worst area in my house.   Wireless remotes work fine in triggering the scene but communication from my ISY or other powerline switches fail.   I have set up 4 access points and dual-band plugins in that area covering both circuits (which are on the same power leg).  I have also removed/unplugged all other electronic devices.  The addition of APs has not noticeably improved reliability.  Obviously there is a wiring issue there, probably a loose neutral in the chain of outlets etc that I have not discovered yet.  But my point is that adding dual-band APs between the ISY and those rooms should theoretically eliminate the issue if the wireless signal was equal to the PLC signal.
 
And that is just one example, I have many other areas in my home that are problematic.  Sometimes they work for months or years, then all of a sudden they don't.  If anything dual-band has made it worse.  I have spent a lot of time adding filters, testing, etc.  Just ask yourself do you really want to be constantly troubleshooting such a system, trying to figure out which new PC or TV you plugged in is causing your light to fail.  That's what Insteon brings to the table.
 
All that being said I don't have any practical experience with Zwave or Zigbee other than locks.  So it my just be wishful thinking that they are better...