New house, probably go with Insteon

A couple of other quick notes on Insteon/RadioRA2:
 
Insteon also allows a double-tap on or off as a seperate signal from a typical on off. Super handy for sort of adding a scene where you don't want to put in a keypad. My main bathroom light for example. I can shut it off, or give it a double-tap off on my way out the door, which Indigo then uses as a trigger to shut off the rest of the bathroom lights.
 
Insteon Thermostats: I absolutely will not trust these. I had two installed, and my wife woke me up one night because our room was freezing. Temp was down to 65 and the Thermostat set point got set to 15F or something like that (something way out of range). I set up a few automation rules to trap errors and reset the thermostats. There were a handful of times where set points would get set to something like 285F or other temps not even achievable by the HVAC. After a while, I realized that even with the automation rules, I was putting a lot of faith in set point changes being correctly reported to the system, and new instructions being correctly received by the thermostats. I've since removed the Insteon receivers from the Venstar Thermostats.
 
Swancoat said:
I've currently got a 'large' Insteon installation (I think 80 total devices or so), so I'll weigh in with my thoughts:
 
On the build, I agree with the others here that say, wire up the lights normally, and focus your energies on Cat5, audio or whatever. And do more of that than you think you want. Most of these lighting protocols are retrofit, so you can add them later with no issues.
 
That being said, my Insteon setup has worked pretty reliably for the last 3 years. However, lately I've been getting more and more device failures, and signal reliability is ok. (Works really well most of the time, but there's some things, like a script to shut off all the lights in the house that actually takes a while to get through all of the devices (like 15 sec)) so I'm thinking about a change.
 
I've been considering going to RadioRA2. First off, it's pretty pricey. Probably going to cost triple my Insteon setup, so that's an issue. For that cost though, you get what is widely reported as bulletproof reliability of devices and signals. Also, much nicer looking keypads/etc. Plus, Scenes can be defined with devices in the 'off' position, and from what I can tell at this stage, large scenes can be executed a little more slickly.
 
On the flip side, going to RadioRA2 may cost me some functionality (I haven't FULLY explored this yet). I've got a bunch of Insteon door sensors set up to activate nearby lights. They work really well, respond pretty much instantly, and are also pretty cheap. RadioRA2 does not seem to have a corresponding solution for this (For things like a closet, I can just keep an Insteon switch there, and use the Insteon door sensor, but some closets don't have an interior light, so I have a hallway light come on instead, and that would impractical to have Insteon with everything else RA2. There's also the solution of doing it in software (I use a Mac with Indigo for a lot of control) and have the Insteon door sensor activate an RA2 switch, but I worry about latency).
 
Also, I don't really care for the way RadioRA2 handles 3 and 4 way setups. With Insteon you wire up on dimmer directly to the load, and the rest just to line and neutral. Then you bind them together with links. Each dimmer always reflects the correct state and each dimmer can control. With RadioRA2, you wire up one dimmer to control the load directly, and for the rest, you get a simpler 'controller' dimmer (which is cheaper), and that wires to the main switch using the existing traveler wire. This is fine, but for some reason, the 'controller' dimmer does not have the same status LEDs that the regular dimmer does. So, sometimes the dimmer you're actually controlling is not actually showing you the status on the LEDs - you have to look at the 'master' dimmer to see the level. I prefer Insteon's solution. Gives more of an illusion that all the devices are peers. (Also, I can imagine an application where both dimmer/switch legs did not have a view of the load. The lack of status light would be particularly annoying there).
 
Also, so far, I can't tell if RadioRA2 even has the ability to link two devices directly, without a keypad. I have one load in my kid's playroom, and there's a separate one in the short hallway that goes to it. We almost always turn them both off or both on. So I just linked them. Now it's like 'one' load with a 3 way switch. Not sure if RadioRA2 can do that (if it can, that's the solution to the problem above... just wire it up like Insteon).
 
Some quick thoughts...
 
15 seconds to cycle 80 lights, or even half that, is pretty good. Insteon is not a fast protocol, it does take time to send all those messages, and wait for confirmation replies before sending the next, etc.
 
Your issue with RadioRa2 and missing door/motion sensors etc., as well as the linking issue, can be solved with a software controller like CastleOS (albeit our RR2 support isn't out yet). You can even mix and match RadioRa2 and Insteon or others. In other words, the switch in the hallway can be Insteon, and the room switch can be RR2, and CastleOS will act as the data broker between the two, translating messages as needed. Same goes for sensors. If both the hallway and room switches were RR2, you can also solve that status not being in sync issue with software by setting one as slave, and one as master. The software handles the rest...
 
wuench said:
I can tell you the Insteon Dual-Band stuff does not work as advertised.  [SIZE=14.4444446563721px] Don't confuse Insteon's dual-band with zwave or Zigbee's mesh technology.  It is not the same thing.  It is just a 3 hop broadcast. [/SIZE]From what I have seen, even if you have a wireless path if the PLC communication fails, Insteon is not stable.  The pure wireless stuff works well, but the dual-band seems to still be plagued by PLC powerline issues.  It may be related to the 3 hop count limit.
 
I will give you an example.  In my master suite I have around a dozen switches and keypads all dual-band.   Communication (especially scene/group commands) fail regularly.  At least one light (any one of them) in a scene fails to turn on every time I use a scene.  It is by far the worst area in my house.   Wireless remotes work fine in triggering the scene but communication from my ISY or other powerline switches fail.   I have set up 4 access points and dual-band plugins in that area covering both circuits (which are on the same power leg).  I have also removed/unplugged all other electronic devices.  The addition of APs has not noticeably improved reliability.  Obviously there is a wiring issue there, probably a loose neutral in the chain of outlets etc that I have not discovered yet.  But my point is that adding dual-band APs between the ISY and those rooms should theoretically eliminate the issue if the wireless signal was equal to the PLC signal.
 
And that is just one example, I have many other areas in my home that are problematic.  Sometimes they work for months or years, then all of a sudden they don't.  If anything dual-band has made it worse.  I have spent a lot of time adding filters, testing, etc.  Just ask yourself do you really want to be constantly troubleshooting such a system, trying to figure out which new PC or TV you plugged in is causing your light to fail.  That's what Insteon brings to the table.
 
All that being said I don't have any practical experience with Zwave or Zigbee other than locks.  So it my just be wishful thinking that they are better...
 
The reason your wireless remote is working fine in the bedroom, but the ISY and other switches fail, shows it's a range issue. The immediate proximity of the wireless remote means the signal is getting to those devices. So the issue with the ISY is that something in between the two is blocking the signal. 

Also don't forget the range of the powerline transmission is MUCH greater than that of the wireless. The wireless will help you hop over a network issue, but it may not get you to the other side of the house... 

All that said you shouldn't be having the issues you are having. However, if there is a loose neutral out there, that would mess everything up. Remember, the neutral isn't just used for sending messages, it's used for timing the sending/receiving of both wired and wireless messages. You need reliable neutrals throughout the install... 
 
Swancoat said:
Insteon Thermostats: I absolutely will not trust these. I had two installed, and my wife woke me up one night because our room was freezing. Temp was down to 65 and the Thermostat set point got set to 15F or something like that (something way out of range). I set up a few automation rules to trap errors and reset the thermostats. There were a handful of times where set points would get set to something like 285F or other temps not even achievable by the HVAC. After a while, I realized that even with the automation rules, I was putting a lot of faith in set point changes being correctly reported to the system, and new instructions being correctly received by the thermostats. I've since removed the Insteon receivers from the Venstar Thermostats.
 
Sounds like Indigo has a software bug with the thermostats. The set point functionality of the Insteon thermostats is VERY reliable - and very dumb. It does what you tell it to do, even when you tell it do something crazy like set the heat super high or the cool super low. (As opposed to say the Nest, which has upper and lower bounds.)
 
What you were seeing was the temp being set to 255, not 285 - 255 corresponds to FF in Hex, which is the highest value you can send the thermostat. So in other words, Indigo was sending it the max value instead of the specific set point. Why could be any number of reasons - missed calculation, missed decimal conversion, wrong method call, you name it. But no need blaming the hardware for faulty software :)
 
I too would recommend wiring your home as though you are not using any automation controls. In my research it looks like each of these systems works with standard existing home wiring with a couple even able to take advantage of travelers for 3/4 way switch situations. This will insulate you from obsolescence of any system you end up choosing.
 
As to what system to go with - I camped out on this and other forums for the last couple of years before finally concluding that I liked the UPB protocol best. Hopefully that won't come back to bite me in the rear. I have started implementing this system in my 3500+ sq ft home by first purchasing some UPB lamp dimmer modules, and a programmer/controller/scheduler made by Simply Automated. So far I'm fairly happy with what I've been able to quickly and very easily setup. Mind you, this does not include any switches yet... That is the next step.
 
UPB is powerline based but seems to communicate quite quickly. Scenes are not handled by an outside controller and as a matter of fact you only really need the programmer to configure the system. The switches, modules, etc. are self contained. Everything has an ID as well as a table of "scene" IDs that they can respond to along with custom settings for the device per scene. Quite powerful.
 
That said, the only hiccup I've experienced so far is occasional excessive noise on the phase opposite of the one the controller is plugged into which has caused some communications failures from one phase to the other. The manufacturers of UPB (three of them I believe) recommend installation of a Phase Coupler to mitigate this issue. I should be installing my coupler tomorrow night. 
 
I eventually plan to implement OpenHAB on a dedicated low power computer (Raspberry Pi or ? ) to run automation integration between UPB and other house systems.
 
Tom
 
+1 Tom relating to UPB
 
Here went kind of slow gravitating to UPB starting initally with X10 around 1978, then Insteon, UPB (very slowly), Z-Wave and currently playing with Zigbee.
 
I am still on the fence relating to that "perfect" automation switch
 
I continue to enjoy my automation journey into the various technologies.
 
That said technology configured and left alone because it just works is UPB today.
 
What I see though mostly via my Leviton HAI OPII panel is simply a light switch that I can turn off and turn on and dim manually or automatically.
 
I am seeing too a bit of the whole Z-Wave / Zigbee stuff in the Insteon Stuff as a push to utilizing one methodology for every need of automation.  IE: wireless sensor devices with batteries type of stuff. 
 
Personally here prefer to use wireless automation / security stuff as a last resort if I cannot do wired and I hate to change batteries.
 
While its easy to use one technology I am not putting all my automation eggs into using one methodology as a solution for all of my automation stuff (well and not security). 
 
Lighting control is one thing. 
 
That is me and that is why I am still playing with a variety of stuff.
 
I see the convenience of said use.  You can put them anywhere.   That said I am seeing the trending of use of this devices / integration of these devices into security stuff. 
 
I am old fashioned a bit and RF is RF is RF and it's propagation is not perfect; it never has been. 
 
Every piece you put between whatever it is you are controlling and control just adds another layer to manage. 
 
This could be just about any topology of transport today.  The more layers though the less resilience you will see. 
 
Processing is much faster these days between those layers but it doesn't remove any layers of transport added.
 
RF is still RF whether you speak Z-Wave, ZIgbee, RadioRA2,802.11X or Insteon (or any new RF based automation stuff coming).
 
Who does radio better is now a race; but really its still radio (RF).
 
This has been really informative for me, and great to hear all the experiences people have had with Insteon and alternatives. I've noticed that there are proponents of UPB on this website in particular, and will have to look into. My understanding is that there aren't nearly as many devices out there for UPB compared to Insteon. Thanks for the tip on RadioRA - more to learn about. And especially with software like CastleOS perhaps to translate between automation devices, that broadens the possibilities further. Hopefully, a common language is the way HA is headed.
 
At this stage for me, I'll probably wire everything conventionally, and everyone pretty much agrees on pre-wiring as much as possible. There as some big players making moves in the market now too, such that in the next few years, who knows, Apple / Samsung / Microsoft may come out with some interesting options (and hopefully complementary).
 
Guessing here that Insteon is still using a hybrid of wireless and powerline transport communication and talking X-10 which is unique.  It was my personal next step from X10 many years ago.
 
It was picked by Microsoft recently for their automation stuff.
 
Lutron has been in the automating light business for many years.  Their goal relating to RadioRF was to make it as good as their legacy stuff.  Typically its considered more high end and installed by Lutron installers.  That said there are folks here that have DIY'd it learning the installation methodologies.
 
Battery operated trinkets (devices) is the new trend now relating to wireless devices for Insteon, Zigbee and Z-Wave.
 
Dprae said:
This has been really informative for me, and great to hear all the experiences people have had with Insteon and alternatives. I've noticed that there are proponents of UPB on this website in particular, and will have to look into. My understanding is that there aren't nearly as many devices out there for UPB compared to Insteon. Thanks for the tip on RadioRA - more to learn about. And especially with software like CastleOS perhaps to translate between automation devices, that broadens the possibilities further. Hopefully, a common language is the way HA is headed.
 
At this stage for me, I'll probably wire everything conventionally, and everyone pretty much agrees on pre-wiring as much as possible. There as some big players making moves in the market now too, such that in the next few years, who knows, Apple / Samsung / Microsoft may come out with some interesting options (and hopefully complementary).
 
 
pete_c said:
Guessing here that Insteon is still using a hybrid of wireless and powerline transport communication and talking X-10 which is unique.  It was my personal next step from X10 many years ago.
 
It was picked by Microsoft recently for their automation stuff.
 
Lutron has been in the automating light business for many years.  Their goal relating to RadioRF was to make it as good as their legacy stuff.  Typically its considered more high end and installed by Lutron installers.  That said there are folks here that have DIY'd it learning the installation methodologies.
 
Battery operated trinkets (devices) is the new trend now relating to wireless devices for Insteon, Zigbee and Z-Wave.
 
UPB doesn't have a lot of devices, but it is a really rock solid protocol. Using it as your core for lighting/receptacles is great, just be sure your controller can mix and match multiple protocols (like CastleOS) so you can add, say, Z-Wave locks, WiFi thermostats (Nest), various sensors, etc. 
 
As far as the big players, Apple and Google are making direct plays (HomeKit and Nest/DropCam, respectively), and Microsoft is working with partners. I know of two: Insteon ...and CastleOS :)
 
I didn't read through most of the long posts here, but I'll state that I have approx. 25 Zwave devices on my network, and integrated with my Elk system. If I had to guess, I think I installed the majority of my Zwave devices about 3 years ago now, with the Elk system following about 2 years ago. Other than known limitations with some of my dimmers (instant status) I have had 0 issues with setup or use of any devices. What inevitably led me to Zwave was the ability to add a controllable deadbolt to my home; something not [easily] offered by any other retrofit installation other than Zigbee, which I think it still in it's infancy in terms of available devices. Would I like some of the added features of an UPB system? Absolutely, additional reliability as well - although I've had no issues there either. However, UPB would not allow me to remotely permit people to enter my home. While I don't use it OFTEN, it's a HUGE value added to me. In addition to the dimmers, switches, and deadbolts, I've also added a Zwave thermostat.
 
I setup a small, 3-device Zwave network for someone earlier this year, which was also integrated into an Elk system. Again no issues, and I'll be assisting with another VERY soon.
 
If I were going to do lighting ONLY... I'd probably go with UPB.
 
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