New house, zero automation now, what dimmers for future automation
- Thread starter Linwood
- Start date
tmbrown97
Senior Member
I think the whole Lutron vs. other technologies was covered pretty well and I'm a bit late to the game - but I figured I'd throw in my $.02. I sold my house last year which was all done with UPB, and quickly remembered that most people aren't very tech or electrical savvy. Even though my buyer was into the gadgetry of it all, his skillset was limited. I'm in a new house now, and I'm basically doing everything so that if I die tomorrow and my wife sells it, it won't be a hassle. That alone was all the reason in the world for me to go with RRa2. I don't know of another system where we could just say "Call XXX Electrician and he'll handle it" like you can with RRa2. I know not EVERY electrician can handle it, but there are plenty.
If on the fence about number of devices and all that, I'd definitely get into RRa2 Select before Caseta - because at least with RRa2 Select, there's an upgrade path to RRa2 - the 100 device version, then even to the 200 device version. There's no wasted investment.
I'll also throw out there that my preferred vendor for a lot of this stuff only carries RRa2 Select... but I decided to skip right to the full version - so I buy switches and pico remotes and wallplates from said preferred vendor, then I get keypads, the main bridge, and repeaters from another vendor that I don't like working with nearly as much (crap web-site, slow shipping times, poor communication) but has decent prices and has the full product line.
The cost of entry to RRa2 is high - the bridges, repeaters, etc - they add up - but so far I'm very happy with the system, and WAF has been high.
If on the fence about number of devices and all that, I'd definitely get into RRa2 Select before Caseta - because at least with RRa2 Select, there's an upgrade path to RRa2 - the 100 device version, then even to the 200 device version. There's no wasted investment.
I'll also throw out there that my preferred vendor for a lot of this stuff only carries RRa2 Select... but I decided to skip right to the full version - so I buy switches and pico remotes and wallplates from said preferred vendor, then I get keypads, the main bridge, and repeaters from another vendor that I don't like working with nearly as much (crap web-site, slow shipping times, poor communication) but has decent prices and has the full product line.
The cost of entry to RRa2 is high - the bridges, repeaters, etc - they add up - but so far I'm very happy with the system, and WAF has been high.
upstatemike
Senior Member
So it sounds like the consensus is to go full Radio RA2 with all Grafik T dimmers but bypass the load wires so the fixtures are always powered so you can put Hue/Zigbee color bulbs everywhere and then use a controller like CQC or Homeseer or Smartthings to let actions at the dimmers control the bulbs.
wkearney99
Senior Member
I wouldn't make the leap to Grafik T. They're nifty, but the look isn't for everyone. That and you're immediately limited to wall plates made for them. If you want a multi-gang wallplate it's spendy.
It's a tough call regarding neutral power. I only pulled neutral to ceiling locations that might some day have a ceiling fan or LED rope lighting. It's overkill to pull it everywhere. You'd be increasing your wiring cost (potentially by up to a third) for 'maybe' scenarios. If/when you genuinely 'need' a fully live lighting position you could just as easily bridge it at the wall switch that's already controlling it. But then you set up a pretty dangerous scenario of a light socket not having a way to be powered off except from a breaker. I'm thinking code probably weighs in here with why that's a bad plan.
It's a tough call regarding neutral power. I only pulled neutral to ceiling locations that might some day have a ceiling fan or LED rope lighting. It's overkill to pull it everywhere. You'd be increasing your wiring cost (potentially by up to a third) for 'maybe' scenarios. If/when you genuinely 'need' a fully live lighting position you could just as easily bridge it at the wall switch that's already controlling it. But then you set up a pretty dangerous scenario of a light socket not having a way to be powered off except from a breaker. I'm thinking code probably weighs in here with why that's a bad plan.
So....
After sleeping on this a couple times, as well as playing a bit with Home Assistant to see what's possible (because it's easier than buying a hub for experimentation not because I think it is necessarily the answer)....
I'm still struggling with a rationale for spending twice as much (or more) to go with RA2 Select or RA2.
@Work2Play maybe hit the strongest case, that "call almost any electrician" if you need to sell the house. I can see that. I'm in a big subdivision where many of the homes include pre-done automation by Pulte. Here they use a local company for those, and I checked what they install -- Caseta. Not RA2. So there's not only an option, but the local recommended option will do caseta.
More to the point, I counted wall switches, and got 38. Total. Not a large house. And that includes items like bathroom fans I know I won't do (I prefer those little button timers there). So even if I did all, and added a few picos, I'm a reasonable distance away. I'm not counting sensors, but I suspect I would do those in a hub not in Caseta.
Plus, Homeseer, Home Assistant and Hubitat (three I checked) all say they support multiple Caseta bridges. So there's a fallback.
Trust me... I love buying fancier gadgets as much as anyone, so I've been trying to talk myself into RA2. I just haven't been able to justify the extra cost and at least as relevant the trouble to go through the hoops of their distribution channel.
I spent some time looking back at UPB (which had I zero trouble with in many years) but it just feels like there is not a lot of future there.
I think the biggest hesitations so far are:
1) Not crazy about the ramp up/down not being adjustable, but that's kind of a nit.
2) Trying to decide how the flat, 4-button switch will work in the dark when you feel around for a light switch, especially if there are guests here.
3) There's a fair amount of angst over the last couple years on forums when Lutron just randomly does a bridge update and stuff stops working, because they are tied in via undocumented techniques.
I'm leaning toward just picking up a half dozen or so at Home Depot this morning, and starting a swap-out. Oddly they seem as cheap there as online (energyavenue has them cheaper but you pay shipping, and instant gratification is a real thing).
After sleeping on this a couple times, as well as playing a bit with Home Assistant to see what's possible (because it's easier than buying a hub for experimentation not because I think it is necessarily the answer)....
I'm still struggling with a rationale for spending twice as much (or more) to go with RA2 Select or RA2.
@Work2Play maybe hit the strongest case, that "call almost any electrician" if you need to sell the house. I can see that. I'm in a big subdivision where many of the homes include pre-done automation by Pulte. Here they use a local company for those, and I checked what they install -- Caseta. Not RA2. So there's not only an option, but the local recommended option will do caseta.
More to the point, I counted wall switches, and got 38. Total. Not a large house. And that includes items like bathroom fans I know I won't do (I prefer those little button timers there). So even if I did all, and added a few picos, I'm a reasonable distance away. I'm not counting sensors, but I suspect I would do those in a hub not in Caseta.
Plus, Homeseer, Home Assistant and Hubitat (three I checked) all say they support multiple Caseta bridges. So there's a fallback.
Trust me... I love buying fancier gadgets as much as anyone, so I've been trying to talk myself into RA2. I just haven't been able to justify the extra cost and at least as relevant the trouble to go through the hoops of their distribution channel.
I spent some time looking back at UPB (which had I zero trouble with in many years) but it just feels like there is not a lot of future there.
I think the biggest hesitations so far are:
1) Not crazy about the ramp up/down not being adjustable, but that's kind of a nit.
2) Trying to decide how the flat, 4-button switch will work in the dark when you feel around for a light switch, especially if there are guests here.
3) There's a fair amount of angst over the last couple years on forums when Lutron just randomly does a bridge update and stuff stops working, because they are tied in via undocumented techniques.
I'm leaning toward just picking up a half dozen or so at Home Depot this morning, and starting a swap-out. Oddly they seem as cheap there as online (energyavenue has them cheaper but you pay shipping, and instant gratification is a real thing).
wkearney99
Senior Member
Linwood said:
Which tech are you talking about with this Caseta or Ra2? Caseta has had some convulsions, for sure, when it came to bridges. If you want integration you have to use the Smart Bridge Pro, which costs more. There have been various attempts to automate using the entry-level bridge and those have met with a lot of complications.
I know of no serious issues with Ra2 bridges and updates. The Ra2 software itself has been through some updates and there were some issues with early installs and trying to upgrade to the latest rev of the PC editing software. As in, homeowner didn't have the original project file and there wasn't a way in their installed firmware to dump the config into the latest PC software. The fix for this was to re-do the config. Reset the switches and pair them again, along with configuring new scenes and such. If it was a complicated setup this could have been tedious. The last several generations of the software have not had that problem. Otherwise it's been remarkably stable.
Honestly, Lutron has made this more difficult than it ought to be. There really shouldn't be a Caseta or Ra2 'Select' line. I think Lutron's done more to build the market for OTHER solutions than help themselves because of this. Putting management impediments in front of customer demands is stupid. The only saving grace is the product genuinely works well.
wkearney99 said:
Yes, Caseta specifically. And it is a bit difficult to tell if it is just the non-pro or not from some postings, apparently there was SSH once, then they dropped it for SSL, then later there was a cert issue. I see the pro uses telnet (now? always?) so maybe it was unaffected by this, and I planned to get the pro anyway so I can use picos standalone.
wkearney99 said:
It's really that last sentence that attracts me. Big name, known for reliability. And brief experience with the LED's here working smoothly.
There's a ton of examples in the home security/automation market where vendors' attempts to protect their installers from DIY's seems, from a DIY standpoint, misplaced. There's a beautiful HA/Security store near me, carries LOTS of good stuff including ELK. Went in, looked around, but they adamantly refused to sell to a homeowner.
So I bought all my ELK stuff online instead. I would even have paid a bit more to shop locally (both for philosophical reasons, and instant gratification).
Their protectionist approach did not actually protect anyone so long as internet sales exist. All it does is annoy local customers who might buy from them.
wkearney99
Senior Member
Yep, the Caseta entry-level bridge vs Pro was a disaster. If you go Caseta the Pro bridge is the only viable choice, which costs more... but works for any 3rd party automation.
Vendor protecting markets is the problem. I get the rationale, as I used to be a manufacturer's rep. Support costs cannot be ignored. But at a certain point you tip past where the dealers are absorbing enough of those costs versus just letting the market run without artificial impediments. Lutron seems to believe that point hasn't been reached. Meanwhile a whole ton of really crappy stuff has flooded the market, looking to hit lower-end price-points. Lutron meanwhile sails on, ignoring the market.
Vendor protecting markets is the problem. I get the rationale, as I used to be a manufacturer's rep. Support costs cannot be ignored. But at a certain point you tip past where the dealers are absorbing enough of those costs versus just letting the market run without artificial impediments. Lutron seems to believe that point hasn't been reached. Meanwhile a whole ton of really crappy stuff has flooded the market, looking to hit lower-end price-points. Lutron meanwhile sails on, ignoring the market.
Just as a follow up, I put in 5 dimmers, 2 switches, and 4 picos today (in addition to the 1 dimmer and 1 pico a couple days ago).
They all worked perfectly. I have the bridge in my office which is at the far end of the house from three of the switches and a pico and it had no trouble communicating, so when relocated to a central "network" closet I think I have no worries to range.
Home Assistant is a bit arcane in a few places (mostly documentation issues) but it all works, except I can't "see" the picos because I have a standard bridge. The point wasn't to adopt home assistant but just a proof of concept.
The whole "if you are opening up a box do the whole thing" came up big time, as I had so many 3-way switches it was impossible to do just one room/area. The front door had a light shared with the entry to the kitchen, the kitchen shared with the great room, which shared with the entry to the den, which shares with the hall going to the utility room. So I very quickly had every switch within sight hanging loose in the boxes.
Where I'm stuck a bit (and still have some hanging out) are pre-wires for fans. Back in the day they ran two switched hots. Now they run one switched (for the light) and one-non-switched, but (important BUT) I can't find any fans that can USE a switched hot for the light, all drive them from the remote control. So I can either intercept that switched line and use it for something unrelated elsewhere (I did that one place for some spots), or use it for a switch for the fan (but it cannot be a fan control switch, just on/off). All of which is somewhat annoying as with all the rest, I would like to use a fan control, and (separately) a light control that's integrated.
I bought a fan (I had been putting that off until I got more furniture to see what style I wanted) and going to experiment with the newer style fans to see if they remember the last setting if turned off and on from a switch. In which case I'll probably just put in RF switches (not fan controls) and at least be able to turn them off and on -- provided I remember to leave them on from the remote, and providing they remember their last state.
They all worked perfectly. I have the bridge in my office which is at the far end of the house from three of the switches and a pico and it had no trouble communicating, so when relocated to a central "network" closet I think I have no worries to range.
Home Assistant is a bit arcane in a few places (mostly documentation issues) but it all works, except I can't "see" the picos because I have a standard bridge. The point wasn't to adopt home assistant but just a proof of concept.
The whole "if you are opening up a box do the whole thing" came up big time, as I had so many 3-way switches it was impossible to do just one room/area. The front door had a light shared with the entry to the kitchen, the kitchen shared with the great room, which shared with the entry to the den, which shares with the hall going to the utility room. So I very quickly had every switch within sight hanging loose in the boxes.
Where I'm stuck a bit (and still have some hanging out) are pre-wires for fans. Back in the day they ran two switched hots. Now they run one switched (for the light) and one-non-switched, but (important BUT) I can't find any fans that can USE a switched hot for the light, all drive them from the remote control. So I can either intercept that switched line and use it for something unrelated elsewhere (I did that one place for some spots), or use it for a switch for the fan (but it cannot be a fan control switch, just on/off). All of which is somewhat annoying as with all the rest, I would like to use a fan control, and (separately) a light control that's integrated.
I bought a fan (I had been putting that off until I got more furniture to see what style I wanted) and going to experiment with the newer style fans to see if they remember the last setting if turned off and on from a switch. In which case I'll probably just put in RF switches (not fan controls) and at least be able to turn them off and on -- provided I remember to leave them on from the remote, and providing they remember their last state.
Oh... as a postscript... I should not have dismissed the whole "opening up the box multiple times" so quickly. Several of my wall junction boxes were very poorly installed, very loose, and very hard to get back flush when you put the switches back. Quite a few switches were not screwed in and just held forward by the faceplate, which I can't stand and had to work on quite a bit. A couple I got to work, but if I have to go back in I may just have to remove it and put in an old-work box I can fasten to the sheet rock. Darn lazy ... not sure who, the electricians or the sheet rock guys... but someone was just lazy and sloppy.
Oh... and EVERY faceplate was painted over and stuck to the wall. So lazy painters also -- who paints walls without removing the face plates!??!? Good thing I don't mind vinyl and it's cheap.
Oh... and EVERY faceplate was painted over and stuck to the wall. So lazy painters also -- who paints walls without removing the face plates!??!? Good thing I don't mind vinyl and it's cheap.
wkearney99
Senior Member
Linwood said:
As I tell my son, learn from my mistakes. I've made so many of them, you won't have enough time to repeat them all.
Wiring done by others reinforces this.... clearly others have made lots of mistakes too. Heh.
wkearney99 said:
The good news is so far I have not found any actual BAD wiring. Just sloppy finish work. They back wire but I think all electricians do now, but all the pigtails were ight, the screws tightened, packed back in the boxes nicely.
The last house I bought in the first few months we had several cases of lose wires arcing inside switch boxes, because the idiots did not get things tight and neat. We also over the years tracked down several actual mistakes, wires just left dead-ended (and not capped) in walls, etc. A lot of these I found changing whole circuits to GFI breakers only to find they kept resetting and then had to track down what they did wrong. Painful, but useful.
So far here it's just cheap stuff. The biggest nuisance is to save a buck, in several places they ran 14-3 and then used it for two branch circuits sharing the neutral on two separate breaks (tied together). Legal yes, annoying though when you want to change things. Or just turn off a breaker, you have to turn off two.
wkearney99
Senior Member
Yeah, iirc each box should have only one circuit in it. Or if they don't, there certainly shouldn't be any shared of neutrals across more than one circuit.LarrylLix said:
This might be indicative of a larger problem. Especially if these are tract houses (ones where the same floorplan is repeated in the neighborhood). I'd be VERY inclined toward bringing in a licensed electrician and stopping/reversing any/all DIY work. If there's gross errors made to the wiring it would seem wise to not become a part of the problem. Because if this problem has been repeated across other houses there might be others at risk.
I'm not one to play games with electric, nor am I the kind to play scare tactics. Electricity is great when it's done properly. Done wrong and you've got property and potentially lives at risk.
upstatemike
Senior Member
Only reason I can think to physically link the breakers is so they can't be moved around and end up with both on the same phase. A shared neutral depends on the two hot lines being on opposite phases so the total current returning on the neutral subtracts instead of adding together. Not sure what codes are in place to prevent that happening but requiring physical linking could be one way to avoid a fire hazard.
