Newbie Help on UPB HLC Setup

[rreinig]

Looking for assistance on setting up my UPB environment.   Here is the environment:   Going with all Gen III HLC equipment, I have HAI OP II controller with PIM and UPStart.   I have started to swap out the controllers and dimmers and through UPStart create my network.   However, I need assistance in placement of Repeaters and Couplers as I can see some of the switches but can't find others and I have not been able to find the repeater.
 
I will attempt to describe the AC environment in text.  So here goes:
 
1) Main Utility CSED is a 400A service located on the side of a guest house
2) From the Main CSED, there is a split 200A service that goes to two panels located in the Main House from where most of the receptacles and the large amp items reside with only a small number of lighting circuits residing there. (Sub-Panel A and Sub-Panel B)
3) From the Main CSED is a Disconnect that feeds the Guest House and has an auto-transfer switch for a Generator that is not hooked up.   This 100A service (Sub-Panel C) also feeds through a Disconnect another box that contains the vast majority of lighting circuits for both the Main and Guest Houses and the PDUs/Receptables within a dedicated Data Room which houses Home Automation, Security, AV, Compute, Storage, Network, Phone, HVAC equipment. (Sub-Panel D and Sub-Panel D1)
 
I have a 39A00-2 Phase Repeater on Sub-Panel C and I have 39A00-1 Phase Couplers on Sub-Panel A, Sub-Panel B, and Sub-Panel D.   My PIM is using receptacles in from Sub-Panel D1 which is fed from a Disconnect from Sub-Panel D.
 
With UPStart connected into the DataRoom receptacles fed from D1/Panel D, I can communicate with the Controllers and Dimmers in the Lighting Sub-Panel D.   However, I can't find the repeater or any Dimmers on the Sub-Panel A or B.
 
So my questions are: 
 
What am I not doing right?  
 
Do I need to add additional repeaters somewhere?  
 
Do I need to put repeaters all the way back in the Main Utility CSED panel?  
 
Do I need to somehow connect the PIM in somewhere else other than in the Data Room which is where the Controller is?
 
Thanks for any help!

 

[ano]

Hi and welcome.  Sounds like you have a pretty elaborate setup, but we can get it working. 
 
First of all i think we have to better understand what you have. Do you have ALL Gen III switches?  You should be set, just make sure your PC PIM for Upstart is recent, and preferably NOT a Simply Automated PIM.  If its a PCS PIM, your good to go, and any Leviton PIM works on the panel.
 
Next, you sound like you have a mix of repeaters and couplers, and this can cause a problem, especially if you don't need them.  BEFORE you added anything, i would do some testing.  Plug your PC PIM in to where your Leviton PIM will go, and try to map out all your switches. Which can it see, and which can it not see.  By the way, if you ARE using HLC, the panel can program switches as well.  It my not be the final programming, but it can do it to start.  This brings up another point. Make sure you have entered all the details of your network in PC Access and in the panel.  Are you using room and house controllers?  Define those and up to 7 units per room. 
 
So back to mapping. Map out each switch and record the PIM to switch and switch to PIM signal level or say "can't communicate."  See any trends?  Like maybe the main house is fine but guest house has problems.  Also note, when running on a generator, all bets are off.  They usually don't have a stable enough waveform to work with UPB. 
 
Off-hand I would say you would probably need a repeater in each panel. Multiple repeaters WILL work, but each can add some latency.  Also, you need to adjust switch settings if you have more than one repeater, but we can handle that when the time comes. For now, just investigate what is and isn't working.

 

[rreinig]

ano, thanks for the response.  It is appreciated.  I do have only Gen III switches as I am buying them now from Worthington.   I have two PIMs 1- USB based PIM from Simply Automated (UMC-USB-W, V4.19) and 2 - UMC-DB9, V4.17) to use for UPStart.   My HAI PIM (36A00-1) however, is a Gen II PIM.   Based on your comments, I am wondering if I should be going to PCS PIM's.  I am also wondering if I need to get a Gen III Leviton PIM.
 
I am using Room and House Controllers also and will ensure I have PC Access set up.
 
Over this weekend, I will disconnect each of the Couplers and map out as many switches and noise levels as I have installed.  I will also move the Repeater to the AC Panel and replace the Coupler where the Leviton PIM will go.  I will also probably look to getting another Repeater for sure.   Thanks again

 

[ano]

ano, thanks for the response.  It is appreciated.  I do have only Gen III switches as I am buying them now from Worthington.   I have two PIMs 1- USB based PIM from Simply Automated (UMC-USB-W, V4.19) and 2 - UMC-DB9, V4.17) to use for UPStart.   My HAI PIM (36A00-1) however, is a Gen II PIM.   Based on your comments, I am wondering if I should be going to PCS PIM's.  I am also wondering if I need to get a Gen III Leviton PIM.
 
I am using Room and House Controllers also and will ensure I have PC Access set up.
 
Over this weekend, I will disconnect each of the Couplers and map out as many switches and noise levels as I have installed.  I will also move the Repeater to the AC Panel and replace the Coupler where the Leviton PIM will go.  I will also probably look to getting another Repeater for sure.   Thanks again

Hi:
 
On the PIMs, I would not worry about the Leviton PIM. Gen II or Gen III are both fine. I think they might have made less compatible one WAY WAY back, but anything they sell in the last 10 years is fine.
 
I WOULD replace your Simply Automated PIM with a PCS version, or with the Web Mountain SPIM-01 UPB GEN II PIM, which is the Simply Automated PIM, with Gen II firmware.  
 
The story behind the Gen I, Gen II, and Gen III stuff is that PCS licenses to other companies to make their products, but Simply Automated never wanted to license Gen II or Gen III because they thought it wasn't needed. As you may notice, Simply Automated does not even sell split-phase repeaters, only PCS and Leviton does.  Even today there is still the Gen I vs. Gen II/Gen III argument going on, and Gen I probably works fine for some, especially smaller installations. But no matter what Simply Automated says, my experience is their stuff doesn't fully support repeaters, which is a Gen II+ technology. 
 
You can still use Gen I switches with your setup, but if you do you will probably need to add a coupler plus your repeater.  For example Simply Automated makes a 3 speed fan controller nobody else does, so that would be the reason.  Just if it was me, I wouldn't use any PIMs unless you know they support Gen II or later.
 
I would install a repeater in your main breaker panel first before adding any others. Install it on its own breaker with a 15A or 20A tandem breaker. You could also install a coupler in another free breaker slot and just turn it on if you get any future Gen 1 switches. You DON'T need it if you are All Gen II and later.
 
Try that setup before trying a second repeater. It probably will work fine.  If you can't "see" some switches you might want to try some troubleshooting BEFORE you throw in a second repeater. Occasional devices like plasma TV's, some microwaves, UPS power supplies etc, can cause problems and if you find them, its often best to add filters to these rather that try to boost the signal to overcome them.