No noise on UPB one day - unusable the next

[jombi122]

Hi all,

I have about 60 UPB modules in my house. Mostly SA but some HAI. Everything was great on Saturday. Sunday about half won't work. I plugged in the PIM and on one side, call it A. I can see the modules - some with good comms, some with poor but with noise. About every 2 minutes I'll get all green but then back to very noisy in 5 seconds or less. If I plug the PIM into a circuit on the other side (side B) I can see nothing - no modules at all.

I've gone though and powered off each of the breakers one by one until only the circuit with the PIM is on and still the noise. Noise went up actually. Then I tried taking the modules out one at a time by pulling the air gap plastic tab. Again, noise would sometimes go up as I "turned off" some of the modules.

I did have my AC outdoor unit blow a capacitor over the weekend but I turned that off (at the panel) right away and that has since been fixed and I still have the issue. I probably shouldn't call that a coincidence.

I also have an SA phase couple in the main panel. I have a main and a sub panel in the house.

Any help on troubleshooting this?

Thanks,

Chuck

 

[wuench]

There have been reports here of noise coming from neighbor's houses on the same transformer. I believe it was a power tool of some sort at a neighbors that was causing it. I also remember someone having the power company investigate and replace their transformer due to interference with UPB. A bit extreme, but if you have shut off all of the breakers in your house and are still seeing noise and you have a cooperative neighbor you might consider having him shut off his mains and see what happens. And/or call the power company out. Whatever event took out your AC cap may have caused other damage.

You also don't seem to have ruled out the PIM or PC it is attached to as a source. Maybe try a new PIM and or laptop not plugged in to test?

 

[jombi122]

Good point wuench. I don't have a spare PIM but I think you're suggesting to not have the laptop plugged in. I'll try that. Thanks,

 

[ano]

Yes, I have many UPB devices as well, so I can feel for you. I agree with Wuench if you haven't yet, replace your PIM. In fact I'll go further, get a Gen II PIM from PCS. Yes, I know you don't have many Gen II devices, but the PCS PIM is the strongest and best.

Next, you never really stated if this was a new thing or has been going on for a while? And do the devices on the opposite phase work when you instruct them? I think the PIM might help your problem, but things that can cause noise are microwave ovens, plasma TVs, refrigerators, and the ever popular UPS backup.

Another thing you can try is connect the PIM to a laptop with UpStart and plug it into different outlets and see what you see.

Also, note that you CAN use multiple phase couplers as long as they are all inverting couplers. I use three.

But get the new PIM first.

 

[Desert_AIP]

Do you have an electric water heater?

I tracked down an intermittent comms problem to my water heater going on and bridging the two legs across a giant resistor, severely attenuating the signals across legs.
I added two additional couplers (three total) and now everything works perfectly.

 

[pete_c]

Personally I fixed my issues with a UPB phase repeater. I still see noise and I think its coming from the step down transformer close to my home and thinking it might be a pool pump next door causing the noise. Reason I say this is that I have been slowly (very slowly) converting to UPB. This stated I had initially installed UPB switches on my second floor, main floor and basement and my signals were great with just a phase coupler in place for about a year.

Literally days after the neighbor installed their inground pool I started to see a degradation in signals between the two phases and noise on the wires.

That said though I did an experiment last week without the phase repeater in place. I used my floater UPB/laptop and went to the second floor and checked out the UPB network from various outlets in 4 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms. Signal strengths were high (over 60 on all of the UPB switches on both phases). I went back to testing with the PIM adjacent to the fuse panel and had issues getting to many of my switches (mostly on the opposite electrical phase) I have since put back the phase repeater and I am well.

Just wondering though if I should extend the serial link on my PIM and put it in the attic instead of off its own breakers next to the panel or replace the HAI PIM with a PCS PIM instead? ( I have a hodgepodge of HAI, SA and PCS UPB switches in place today).

Ano,

I have HAI, SA and PCS phase couplers. I noticed when I had the HAI phase coupler in place and the HAI UPB repeater in place my signals were not as good as when I removed the HAI UPB phase coupler just utilizing the HAI UPB repeater.

What caused this and what differences are there in my three phase couplers?

 

[ano]

Personally I fixed my issues with a UPB phase repeater. I still see noise and I think its coming from the step down transformer close to my home and thinking it might be a pool pump next door causing the noise. Reason I say this is that I have been slowly (very slowly) converting to UPB. This stated I had initially installed UPB switches on my second floor, main floor and basement and my signals were great with just a phase coupler in place for about a year.

Literally days after the neighbor installed their inground pool I started to see a degradation in signals between the two phases and noise on the wires.

That said though I did an experiment last week without the phase repeater in place. I used my floater UPB/laptop and went to the second floor and checked out the UPB network from various outlets in 4 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms. Signal strengths were high (over 60 on all of the UPB switches on both phases). I went back to testing with the PIM adjacent to the fuse panel and had issues getting to many of my switches (mostly on the opposite electrical phase) I have since put back the phase repeater and I am well.

Just wondering though if I should extend the serial link on my PIM and put it in the attic instead of off its own breakers next to the panel or replace the HAI PIM with a PCS PIM instead? ( I have a hodgepodge of HAI, SA and PCS UPB switches in place today).

Ano,

I have HAI, SA and PCS phase couplers. I noticed when I had the HAI phase coupler in place and the HAI UPB repeater in place my signals were not as good as when I removed the HAI UPB phase coupler just utilizing the HAI UPB repeater.

What caused this and what differences are there in my three phase couplers?

Yes, add pool pumps to my noise list, especially those varable speed models.

And let me tell you about my split phase repeater story. It doesn't have a happy ending.

So I bought a repeater from PCS for $400+. I can live with the fact that it doesn't repeat the return path for Gen I switches, another words, Simply Automated. We'll what they don't tell you is that UPStart also can no longer communicate with switches on the opposite phase. Without UPStart, at first i thought it was helping, in some areas it was, but then some switches stopped working in random locations, and I couldn't see them in UPStart to even know what was wrong. So then I tried phase couplers AND repeater. That generally didn't work either. I pulled out the repeater and used the triple bridges and all worked well. I ran a signal test and I could talk to all switches. Whatever caused my problems disappeared in the 6 months I had the repeater. So my advice is to stay away from the repeater unless you have NO Gen I switches on the other phase.

pete_c i would NOT recommend you mix phase couplers from multiple manufacturers. From what SimplyAutomated told me long ago, there are inverting phase couplers and non-inverting phase couplers. Using them both is like mixing matter and anti-matter. I don't understand it, but just don't do it. So SA likes the inverting couplers, and says that multiple ones can be used. They say the same isn't true for non-inverting. I use three SA inverting couplers, and adding each did help.

Just wondering, has anyone heard from Simply Automated in years? They used to be around on these boards, but I haven't heard a peep out of them in years.

 

[tmbrown97]

Hi Ano - I use SA UPB quite a bit; I've never had a noise issue, but I did have an issue with signal loss, and their tech support was beyond amazing. They were quick, to the point, and helped me through the issues very quickly. Same as you, I ended up using multiple phase couplers. In fact, right now I'm running a dryer module and a breaker panel version; I need to just move to 3 side-by-side wire-in modules off a single breaker - it looks like that should increase the signal much more. Skeptics could certainly mock this, but it's not insurmountable to me when you total up all costs involved. I do *not* have a hodge-podge of switches, as I found what I wanted and standardized to keep everything in my house consistent.

Unfortunately, the UPB makers in general have gone kinda quiet. I talked to someone at SA a few months ago, but if you look at the PCS site, nothing has been touched in a year. It sounds like they've kinda fizzled out and instead of releasing the protocol to people who will do something with it, they may be taking it to their grave. I hope not, but that may turn out to be the key difference between a licensed protocol vs. an alliance (like Z-Wave).

 

[pete_c]

I am not mixing the UPB phase couplers. Just over the years have tried one of each in the panel. I did though remove the HAI phase coupler and left the HAI UPB repeater in. I did this noticing that the HAI repeater did work both boosting my signals on both phases in my home; where as the HAI phase coupler didn't do much. But neither did the PCS or SA do much for my home UPB set up.

I was curious though because the labels on the phase couplers do not mention whether they are inverting or non-inverting. You make mention that SA liking the inverting type phase couplers.

That said though is your recommendation to utilize an inverting versus a non-inverting phase coupler? Specifically the SA inverting phase coupler?

 

[ano]

Yes, use multiple SA inverting phase couplers. At least that is what SA recommends. I think after about three of these you get diminishing returns. I which they would just make the coupler three times stronger, then you wouldn't need three.

pete_c - From your repeater experience, it sounds like you have all GEN II switches. Is that the case? Any problems with UPStart?

 

[kurtmccaslin]

This is what I found on inverting couplers:

http://www.simply-automated.com/documents/Datasheet_ZPCI_081215.pdf

 

[tmbrown97]

I know this was mentioned above - but it's definitely important to move your PIM around to see if you get different results. I spent an entire day troubleshooting my UPB noise, moving breakers, swapping phases, and turning everything off - only to learn purely by accident that the source of my noise was plugged into the same outlet as my PIM; turned out the DirecTV power injector that was in my wiring closet with the PIM was the troublemaker. I only found this after I totally gave up for the day on troubleshooting and, while feeling defeated, decided I should at least clean up the closet at little (so I could feel like I accomplished something). In the process, I moved the wall-wart from the regular power strip to a filtered in-rack strip. After I closed it all up, I decided to run one more test so I'd have something to think about, and lo and behold, my issues were gone! Only took a few minutes to trace it back from there.

 

[pete_c]

Trying an experiment here.

My serial SA UPB floater seems to work best from the second floor. Initally testing via a 4 port Quatech serial to network device. I currently utilize one on the second floor of my home for a Davis serial weather console connection. I then will extend the HAI OPII serial to UPB device to the attic instead of adjacent to the fuse panel. I have numerous cat5e connections going from the basement patch panel to the attic; where as I can utilize a cat5e to serial connection. I'll also give the PCS serial PIM a try versus the HAI serial PIM connection to the HAI panel.

 

[IndyMike]

Let me start by saying that I know just enough about UPB to be dangerous. I understand the signalling protocol, but PIMs and Gen1/Gen2 are like Greek to me. Fortunately this topic appears to be centered on AC signal coupling and cancellation. This has been around a long time and it is not a situation where one size fits all.

I read over the coupler link provided by RockinArmadillo. The SA coupler described is similar to much older X10 couplers made by Leviton (6299) and ACT (CP-000). It uses two tuned transformers to isolate the phases and can couple either in phase or out of phase (inverted). In this instance, it appears that SA has only brought out three wires from the device. They are preventing you from connecting the device as an in phase coupler.

There is nothing wrong with an out of phase (inverting) coupler. It will "add" to the coupling that is already present through the utility transformer. It will have problems with high wattage 240V loads (low resistance) which will couple signals in phase and tend to cancel (subtract) from the signals being coupled by the SA.

As Desert_AIP inferred, this sounds like the situation the OP is encountering. A large resistive load will degrade the signals on the opposite phase due to cancelllation.

This is where the "one size does not fit all" comes into play. Homes that have large resistive loads switching on/off may be better served by an in phase coupler. The in phase coupler will receive some cancellation through the utillity transformer, but this should be relatively constant (not like the a resistive load switching on/off).

SA has stated that multiple in phase couplers will result in cancellation. This I do not understand unless they are commenting on the specific coupling method that competing devices are using. The simpe act off adding additional in phase couplers should not add signal cancellation. I use multiple CP-000 couplers configured for in phase coupling on my X10/Insteon system. There is no cancellation inherrent in this configuration.

SA does describe that the capacitive loads in their device are transformer isolated. It's possible that the competing devices present capacitive loading that is not isolated and therefor absorb the UPB signals. In that regard, the user would need to weigh the benefit of adding additional phase coupling (at multiple panels) vs the additional absorbtion of the device itself.

Some time ago Jeff Volp put together a nice description of coupling methods for X10 devices. Although the signalling is different, the coupling methods for UPB are the same. His paper is located here: http://jvde.us/x10/x10_couplers.htm. The section applicable to the SA "inverted" couplers is about half way down under the heading "Passive Couplers and 240V X10 devices". The circuit section with transformers "T2" and "T3" is Jeff's model of the inverting coupler. I believe this is representative of what SA is using.

 

[ano]

Fotunately, or maybe unfortunately, UPB works nothing like X10. X10 is a modulated tone that rides on the powerline signal with one tone representing a zero and another being a one. UPB uses the a giant spike or the absence of one and the position of these spikes to represent ones and zeros. The two are different enough where any rules for X10 usually don't apply to UPB and vis-versa. Some couplers do couple both X10 and UPB, but I believe that was a decision they made in their design because X10 is so easy to couple and because many UPB people also have X10 devices.

I worked with Simply Automoted in the early UPB days because my house had very little signal transfer across phases, so Simply Automated wondered why. We never got a 100% answer, but the best we had was some newer power company transformers have better "noise" suppression than older transformers. Noise in this case is the UPB signal. Remember, ANYTHING riding on the 120V signal, X10, UPB, or anything can be considered noise and all these signals are just attempting to sneak under the noise radar.

From speaking with Simply Automated, again many years ago, they report that inverting or non-inverting couplers each work better in certain cases, and the deciding factor was a home's distance to the transformer, along with several other factors. The best advice here is try both and see what works best for you. Inverting was best for me.

For UPB, I have found both signal "suckers" and noise makers, but they both occur much less than for X10. I had a Panasonic Inverter microwave that was a major noise maker, but it only lasted a few year. But with UPB, like X10, you can buy filters to isolate this from the powerline.