Omni IIe strange behaviour

[Smoofness]

Hi,
I bought a house with an Omni IIe system installed. The system generally works well, but does not work as it should at times. The symptoms include:
- Lights that should go off when a door closes stay on for 20-30 seconds before turning off
- Lights that should turn on when a door opens will not turn on at certain times of day
- The wall panel says lights are on when they are actually off

Each of these behaviours only seems to happen at certain times of day (e.g. for an hour around 11pm). I've thoroughly reviewed the automation code to see if that might be responsible, but it all looks fine.

Any ideas?

Thanks

 

[Neurorad]

What lighting control do you use?

 

[HAI_fjh]

My first thought would be communications problems with the loads. If it works sometimes then it is unlikely to be a configuration or addressing problem because if switches were not configured properly or you were sending to the wrong address the it would never work. When an intermittent problem follows a schedule this also tends to point to external interference.

It could always be a problem with the automation programming. You could have some lines of code that are not doing what you expect. I do not suspect this at this time because you said the "wall panel" (console?) does not agree with the actual state of the load. When programming goes awry and turns tings on or off unexpectedly, the status is usually still correct, just not what you want.

When lights take a long time to respond to commands this is usually due to the controller having to retry several times. Similarly incorrect status usually means status messages are being missed or lost. Again both of these point to communications issues.

What type and brand of lighting control are you using. this will help narrow down were to look for the problem. i.e. If you are using a power line signaling technology like X-10 or UPB then you would look for things putting noise on the power line. If you are using a wireless technology like Z-Wave then you would look for sources of RF interference.

 

[Smoofness]

I'm using the HAI HLC 600W Dimmers for all lighting. There's also one HAI Scene Switch that coordinates with one of the dimmer switches (i.e. when the light is on, the Scene Switch generally changes to "On", and when the dimmer is off, the Scene Switch generally changes to "Off"). There are no wireless switches.

One thing I noticed: the HAI UPB PIM is plugged into a power bar. Is this an issue?

I have tested the system with UPStart and it doesn't seem to note too much noise.

 

[HAI_fjh]

The power bar could be a problem. Many have surge suppression that can dampen UPB signals. You mentioned that UPStart does not show much noise but what about signal strength?

Also in your first message you indicated that the problem was worse during certain times of the day. Did you look at the switches with upstart when the switches were working well and when they were not? If so what were the differences in noise or signal level at the different times?

How did you configure the switches, via the Omni, or manually with UPStart?

 

[Smoofness]

I have gone in via UPStart to take another look at noise levels and signal strength. I tried to verify the network and it showed that all but one device was "missing" and it had found a bunch of "new" devices under different unit numbers.

I logged in to PC Access to rewrite automation settings, etc. to see if that would change anything. After exiting, I went back to UPStart, which now verifies about half of the devices and shows the remainder missing. I have no idea what's going on here - I haven't been doing any reprogramming. The only change I've made has been to plug the PIM directly into a wall socket rather than into the "SurgeArrest" powerbar.

I ran a communications test on one of the functional devices and it notes that signal strength is "excellent", but noise level is "severe". Here are the results:

At the device:
Signal: 130
Noise: 10
Avg Noise: 5
Phase: Other

At the Powerline Interface:
Signal: 92
Noise: 10

Thanks for any and all help.

I will also point out: the controller is firmware v2.15 - I do not have the ability to flash the firmware through PC Access.

 

[Steve]

Looks like you have noise issues. I have found that while control signals do power their way thru most of the time, its near impossible to verify and program in a high noise environment. Do you know if these are GenII switches? If they aren't then you will never get them to work right until you find and filter the noise. GenII switches should work ok with a noise level of 10 but programming may still be a bit quirky. It's still probably best to try to identify the noise and get rid of it if possible.

1. Do you have a phase coupler or repeater installed?
2. Is the noise pretty much constant or does it vary up and down?
3. Is the noise there all the time or only certain times of the day?

See if the noise is internal (your house) or external (neighbors, etc). You can troubleshoot it the same way as x10, by flipping off breakers and checking until you can isolate the breaker/room/device. Suspect devices with variable speed motors, like the Pentair pool pumps or maybe certain types of dimmers or electronics.

 

[Smoofness]

You'll have to forgive my ignorance as I'm very new to home automation. I am not sure if I have GenII switches (I assume you're talking about the rocker switches?) - they appear for all intents and purposes to be the latest 600W HAI dimmer switches (this install was done last year on the house as it was built).

A phase coupler is installed.

I believe the noise varies, but have not checked often enough to verify this. The programming will be effective the vast majority of the time but seems to fail in late evening. I have noticed the green LED on the PIM flashing on and off during times when the programming was not functioning as it should, and a solid LED when it was functioning properly.

Thanks

 

[HAI_fjh]

Like Steve said it looks like you have a definite noise problem. I am basing this on the statement :signal strength is "excellent", but noise level is "severe"

As far as GEN 1 vs. GEN 2 switches, GEN 2 should have better noise tolerance, but the best solution is to eliminate the noise source if possible.

Now the fun part is isolating it. There are many things that can put noise on the power line. It could be an appliance like some TVs, vacuum cleaners, blenders, tread mils, blow dryers, etc. Some compact fluorescent lights, bathroom fans/heaters, and so on...

There is one good thing about your problem though, and that is it occurs at a regular time. What is different at that time? Are there any automatic processes that occur at that time? Pool pump? If possible, try turning off every thing you can in the house and then check the noise level. Start turning things on one room at a time, checking the noise level as you go. You should be able to isolate it. Once you know what it is then you can figure out what to do about it.

In my home, a few years back I started replacing incandescent lights with CFLs. All of the sudden I began having problems with my lighting. They were not as sever as yours but I tracked it down to the CFL lights in my office. They were a different brand and higher wattage from the others, and they put out a huge amount noise. I replace them and all is well. I still use CFLs it was just those particular ones. It can be that simple.

 

[Smoofness]

I have figured out that the noise comes from a couple of different appliances. What can I do at this point to eradicate the noise on the line? Is there a specific product that needs to be installed on the line where those appliances are plugged in? They are a bit too big to replace (fridge, freezer).

Thanks again

 

[HAI_fjh]

Awe come on, a fridge is not that expensive?

Actually there are a number of line noise filtering options that are designed to work with UPB. There are devices that install in line or at the panel to protect an entire circuit, and plug in modules that just plug into the outlet then plug the noisy appliance into them.

I would recommend going with the PCS PLS-15 (15a plug in) for your installation as we have had good results with this one. They also make a 3.8a version for smaller appliances.

You should contact your supplier and see what they have that best fits your needs. Just make sure you get one specifically designed for UPB, because general purpose noise filter may not work. Remember you want filter the noise and not the UPB signal.

 

[Smoofness]

Thanks for all the help.

Just as a follow-up, it turns out our problem didn't entirely originate from inside our house. The installer installed the same system and settings next door, and neglected to include a phase coupler on that installation. Apparently, our automation was also affecting their lights, etc. They have since had a phase coupler installed and this has cleared up most problems in our house.

 

[Steve]

You are saying that YOU were still having problems with noise in your house, then your neighbor got their switches put in and the noise from YOUR house was affecting their install? Ok, that all makes perfect sense so far. But then putting a pahse couple in THEIR house eliminate all the noise in YOUR house? That part has me scratching my head. I would think if they added a phase coupler it would make whatever noise was in THEIR house even worse but I don't see how it would eliminate noise in your house. It would make plenty of sense if they also had a device that was causing noise that bled over into your install and if they installed a filter, not a phase coupler, then you would see a drop in your noise as well. I have seen many times where noise outside your house like a neighbor can be an issue, but its the way it was fixed that leaves me puzzled.