OmniPro II - Wiring In Smoke Detector

[Vycor]

So I have an issue... or basically no knowledge of how to do this...

I setup an OmniPro II system for a client of mine. He has motion detectors, glass breaks, window sensors, automated lighting, multiple keypads, thermostats and the OmniPro touch screen.

Everything works great... and now we're tieing in his smoke detector system. The guys an electrician so its really easy to do whatever we need to as far as electrical goes.

So his smoke detector system is hardwired for AC and its all connected via the red interconnect cable. We used some type of relay for the smoke detector that gives us either a NO or NC circuit.

Now hes also got a zone expander (hardwider) so what i did was i wired it into Zone 18, as a NC circuit. That worked fine. We set it up as a FIRE in the zone listing and when we tested it, it worked very nicely. Only problem was, we didnt know how to bring the zone back to SECURE. Originally i had NO zone resistor on... so i did some reading and put a zone resistor on and that solved our problem.

But then i went to SECURE my connections since they were temporary and thought "well geee this is a problem, if i cut that wire or move it, the fire alarm will go off, thats not good" and i read i should always set a fire alarm zone to Normally Open... which makes sense..

Soooo im curious now how to setup the OmniPro II panel for a normally closed circuit. In my PC Access software i have the "zone resistors" set to NO so i tried setting that to YES, and that didnt exactly work properly. It would trip the zone to READY when it went off, but when it was "cleared" it always flashed "SMOKE DETECTOR NOT READY" whichi is annoying, i want the system to THINK its ready when its OPEN. And to go into alarm when its CLOSED.

I also read something about Z1-Z4 and putting the dip switchs to the SMOKE setting, but again no luck. I tried Z1 by using the two leads off Z1... then i tried the first lead and then one of the SWITCH points right above it like in the diagram, but no luck.

Soo. HOW do i wire in this smoke detector properly. We're not bringing wires DIRECTLY off the smoke, as we're using a relay, and i can do NC or NO the option is up to me.

Should i go back to how i had it on Z18 as a NC circuit... but then what happens if the wires cut, fire department will show up, we don't want that. Id rather want my smoke to CLOSE the circuit so theres no accidents.

 

[pete_c]

Here's what I did. It was a bit time consuming and its been working fine for me.

Smokes and CO detectors

 

[Vycor]

I dont really follow it unfortunatly, sorry. Smokes/fire is new for me, ive done burg no probs, but never got involved with smoke... its pretty simple.

The basement has a smoke alarm (which is connected to the rest of the house via the interconnect wire). That works fine, one smoke goes off they all go off. About 5' away is the HAI panel.

Sooo we used some relay module, i forget exact name, but the relay module got wired into the smoke.

Smoke had 3 wires coming off it. WHITE, BLACK, RED. We connected the White/Black off our relay to the smoke (thats basically our AC power). The reds got connected together (bascially this is what tells everything HEY THERES A FIRE).

So then off the relay are 3 other wires, well more but we cared about 3 i think (unless we need the others?). Yellow/Orange/Blue. Blue is our common, and yellow was NC and orange was NO.

So at first we tried yellow, that worked and i set it up as a NC circuit on Z18, but i didnt like using a NC circuit... what if a wire got cut, fire department shows up? because unlike an alarm if that wires cut no matter WHAT the status of our alarm (away/night/day/off) it'll see it as a fire.

So i figured... i'll try the orange which is our NO, sooo if smoke goes off, it CLOSES my circuit.. better idea, but i have no idea how to hook in that NO circuit into the HAI panel, since everything looks like it wants to operate as normally closed circuits to show my ZONE READY.....

does that help?

 

[Desert_AIP]

I should caveat everything below with "wiring an AC powered smoke into the panel is a code violation".

I have 7 separate AC smokes tied into my Omni Pro panel.

Set the zone as FIRE. (Omni expects this to be NO)
Wire the circuit with an EOL resistor in parallel not series.

The relay inputs from the detector should be neutral (white) and the red (signal) wire.
Fire Active should send ~9-12V down the red wire.
The relay closes.
Use the NO contacts on the output side of the relay with the EOL wired across the terminals in parallell.
Make sure the relay you are using is not latching.

Look at the Omni install manual for details on wiring NO or NC contacts.

Which zone are you going to use? Z1-4 are setup slightly differently than the others.
For Z1-4, you have one zone lead coming off of the panel 12VDC, going to the relay contact, and the second lead goes from the other relay contact to the "+" terminal of the zone. Set the zone jumper to "SMK" when using Z1-4.
For all other zones, you have one zone lead coming off of the zone "-", going to the relay contact, and the second lead goes from the other relay contact to the "+" terminal of the zone.

 

[pete_c]

As unappealing as it looks I keep my 120VAC smokes in place and just added the HAI smokes/CO detectors. It wasn't to difficult in the MW. In FL though there is one smoke in every room in the house and all of the ceilings are high which would make a similiar endeavor to retrofit / add new smokes very time consuming.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

I'm NOT AN EXPERT in smoke detection, but seems to me, if you want to integrate your existing AC smoke detectors you would simply replace just one of them with a GE type which will be a direct replacement and it has a relay that will trip if it or any other smokes go off. Of course this has disadvantages and has been discussed multiple times here...

 

[Vycor]

Well he has existing smokes, and now an HAI system. We are using a relay module to tie in his existing smokes to the HAI panel (the relay module is for this, it allows us to use the AC smokes with a low voltage system)

Im still a bit lost unfort... maybe because i need to set them up as PARALLEL.

Basically im given 3 leads.

Blue - common
Orange - NC
Yellow - NO

I guess i need to use my Blue and Yellow wires and hook them up to say Zone 18 and set that zone to FIRE. Then i need to wire in the resistor in parallel, but im not sure how do to that part. How is it done, ive only done series before with resistors.

 

[Desert_AIP]

Well he has existing smokes, and now an HAI system. We are using a relay module to tie in his existing smokes to the HAI panel (the relay module is for this, it allows us to use the AC smokes with a low voltage system)

Im still a bit lost unfort... maybe because i need to set them up as PARALLEL.

Basically im given 3 leads.

Blue - common
Orange - NC
Yellow - NO

I guess i need to use my Blue and Yellow wires and hook them up to say Zone 18 and set that zone to FIRE. Then i need to wire in the resistor in parallel, but im not sure how do to that part. How is it done, ive only done series before with resistors.

Series is a single loop, the components are placed in a "series" one after the other.
The circuit starts at the panel, goes in one end of the resistor, out the other end of the resistor, then through your relay or window contact or whatever (Normally Closed so current flows through it), and then back to the panel.
There is only one path for current to flow.


Parallell offers two "parallell" paths for the currrent to flow.
The circuit starts at the panel and goes to one contact of a normally open relay.
The relay is usually open, so there is no pissibility for current to flow through it.
The other leg of the circuit goes from teh second contact of the relay back to the panel.
Unless the relay is triggered, and the contacts close, there is no path for electricity to flow, it is an open circuit.
Just like a cut wire.
The resistor bridges the gap across the relay contacts.
The resistor is placed across the terminals of the relay.
The wire from the panel AND one leg of the resistor attach to one side of the relay.
The second wire going back to the panel AND the other leg of the resistor attach to the other side of the relay.
So when the relay is not triggered, current flows down the wire, through the resistor, out the other wire and back to the panel.
When the relay is tripped, the contacts close. Now the electricity has an easier pathe to flow, rqther than flow through the resistor, it flows through the metal contacts shorted together.
This appears as a dead short to the panel, current flow spikes high.
The panel monitors the current flow in the circuit and can tell the difference between flowing through a resistor and a dead short.
It can also tell if the wire is damaged since a cut wire will allow no current to flow. This is a "Normally Open supervised circuit."


In your case:
Assuming NOT using Z1-4.
You would run a wire from the "-" side of zone 18 to the Blue wire of the relay.
You would run another wire from the "+" side of zone 18 to the Yellow wire of the relay.
(you can do this with a 22/2 wire of course)
You also place the resistor ACROSS both terminals of the relay.
One side to the Blue wire, the other side to the Yellow wire.

So you would have the wire from the "-"side, the Blue wire and one leg of the resistor all joined together.
and
You would have the wire from the "+" side, the Yellow wire and the second leg of the resistor all joined together.

 

[Vycor]

LOL thanks, i know what 22/2 wire is and how to wire into the terminals but thanks for the detailed instructions... so i guess for parallel im just plugging in the resistor on the + and - sides of my panel... never realized that actual performs a function... so i guess thats not enough resistance to CLOSE the circuit but when the fire alarm goes off it gives some more and that can close it, which trips my fire alarm?

now with it set to FIRE as the zone type, it'll LOOK for a closed circuit? We tested this originally with a Normally Closed circuit on z18 as a fire type, and it showed "ready" because it was closed, when fire alarm went off it went into alarm mode...

but naturally im changing this to a NO circuit... i guess the difference is the first time i did this, i told the system that i was NOT using resistors, and in this case i have to set that dropdown to YES im using zone resistors, this way it looks for them and what not?

 

[Desert_AIP]

Sorry for the wordy reply, it sounded like you didn't know what a parallel circuit was.

The FIRE zone expects a NO detector (or relay).
In the untripped state it expects current flowing through a resistor only.
In the tripped state it expects current flowing directly through the wire, bypassing the resistor.

You can place the resistor across the terminals of the panel or the relay.
Electrically the panel can't tell the difference.
If you place the resistor at the panel you lose fault detection, because it can not see a cut wire from the relay.
That is why they are called "End of Line" resistors.
They are meant to be placed at the end of the loop in order to provide supervision for the entire zone loop.

If you disable zone resistors in the setup you have to use NC for all circuits except supervised Fire (and gas).
It ALWAYS expects an EOL resistor and a NO relay on a fire zone, even with resistors disabled. (because of the supervision behavior.)
I'm not sure what you were seeing with your test and a NC circuit.

The Loop Readings for each zone are a indicator of the current flowing through each loop of wire.
There are ranges of readings 0-255 (8 bit) that tell the controller the condition of the detection loop.

A reading of ~"0" indicates a cut line or bad connection - you get a "TROUBLE" signal.
A reading of ~"140" indicates a complete circuit through the resistor, relay open, no alarm - you get a "SECURE" signal.
A reading of ~"255" indicates a closed relay, alarm condition - you get "NOT READY" and "TRIPPED" signals.
Note how the current increases.
This is why the total resistance of the loop matters.
You can view these readings by zone on any console.

The knowledge base has the actual ranges of those numbers.
And they are different with different interpretations for a NC (burgulary) zone.

The zone type tells the controller how to interpret the current readings.

Without EOL resistors there is no supervision of the line. They essentially become dry contact inputs.
For a NC circuit (burglary), a cut line is still interpreted as an alarm.
For a NO circuit (fire) the panel can not detect a cut line, thus you have no way of knowing if your fire alarm is being monitored by the panel or there is a problem.
You don't want to use a NC circuit with fire, because you don't want a cut line to send the fire trucks to your house.
You want the system to initiate a positive action, closing the relay, before it sends the fire alarm.

Hope that helps.

 

[Vycor]

Makes sense... he wasnt using resistors on anything, made my life easy but with the addition of the smoke alarm now i'll have to put resistors on everything.

I normally don't bother putting them at the end of the line, i put them in the panel. If the wire is cut, say on a burg zone, then thats fine, because my burgs are NC so if the resistor is cut in the panel or a wire is cut, it won't show it as CLOSED anyway...

but i guess i see that with NO circuits it might make more sense to put it elsewhere... but if im not watching that resistance field i'll never know if its cut or not.

Will the panel know if i have a cut wire, will it know "hey the resistance should be this, suddenly its really small, cut wire, fault" hows it know a wire is cut if its a NO circuit?

 

[Frunple]

Will the panel know if i have a cut wire, will it know "hey the resistance should be this, suddenly its really small, cut wire, fault" hows it know a wire is cut if its a NO circuit?

Actually, you have it backwards, a short is no resistance, an open it's infinite resistance.
It knows by not seeing the EOL resistance, in this case 1k ohms. So if the resistance goes higher than that it assumes a trouble.
That's the only reason they came out with EOL resistors years ago.

 

[Vycor]

Gotcha so its looking for that resistance... and if its not there it senses trouble... but by having it in the panel its always there even if wires cut, because the resistor is at the panel

 

[grimster]

Not certain if reviving a thread from 2010 is the best way to get more questions answered....
 
I am integrating 120V whole house, interconnected, smoke detectors (black, white, red wires) into OmniProII panel.  I left Z1-4 open so far as I read that these could be used for Smoke detectors.  I understand the concept of using a relay but not necessarily why one is needed here.  OmniPro II manual states to connect an output (12V) to the smoke detectors and return to Z1-4 (+).  Assuming this sends 12V through the relay when it closes. 
 
I am looking at RIB 12C-FA.  functionaldevices.com/downloads/datasheets/RIB12C-FA.pdf 
 
Plan to connect red and white on detector side to white/blue white/yellow on relay and 12V out of panel to yellow and out orange (NO) back to Z-1 (+). 
 
Is this correct?
 
Resistors?
 
 
Curiosity:
If the smoke detectors send out 12V on red wire when activated, what is the reason this can't be directly connected to the panel Z1-4 (+) if that can "see" 12V there as described?  Why the relay?

 

[RAL]

120 VAC smoke alarms are not meant to be interconnected to an alarm system panel.  Some people do it, but it is not the right way to go.  There are several other threads on Cocoontech that explain why.
 
[Edit]:
 
Re-reading your post, I'm not sure if you understand the difference between household smoke alarms and alarm system smoke detectors.   They are distinctly different devices.
 
Smoke alarms are standalone or interconnected devices that function without an alarm panel and operate on 120VAC and/or battery power.  Smoke detectors are designed to work with an alarm panel, with power provided by the alarm system.
 
The zone inputs of the OP II panel are meant to be connected to smoke detectors, and not smoke alarms.