Outputs

[Mike]

I submitted the condition to System Sensor. I'll post an update when I hear something back from them.

The speaker part doesn't make sense (and was working fine when just the RRS-MOD was in). Maybe the polarity reversal has something to do it, but that shouldn't affect that output.

 

[Mike]

Well it has been awhile, but I finally came back to this issue. I have the 2W-MOD2 hooked up as a four wire smoke to the elk, with the RRS-MOD connected as well to the output of the 2W-MOD2 which is connected to my 2 wire smokes.

It works!

Well kind of. The alarm triggers, all the smokes go off. My rule for the output 3 to turn on is working (which triggers the rrs-mod).

My problem: When the fire alarm is going off, the keypads are very sluggish and I can't seem to get 'reset smoke detectors' to work (it is hard to even get it to that prompt). I wound up shutting off the power to the elk. I tried all three keypads (if it was only one I might be inclined to redo the wiring on that keypad).

I know this is not what is expected and it must be tied to something in my setup (or the combination of components is screwing something up). Any ideas on how to trouble shoot this further?

 

[rfdesq]

What is the current draw when the system is in fire alarm condition with all of the sounders firing?

 

[Digger]

What is the current draw when the system is in fire alarm condition with all of the sounders firing?

I would start looking there to. How do you have the line reversal relay wired? Off memory I have triggered on the purple wire off the bell circuit, black and red went to aux power, and the other wires were for the zone. The relay pulls about 20 ma in alarm all by itself and if you are using the 2WTA-B's they pull another 15 ma in alarm each if I remember correctly. It adds up fast.

I will be playing with these detectors at work next week on another brand panel but I thing RFDESQ has the right idea to check your power consumption so you might want to start there.

 

[Mike]

Hmm. Thank you. I think this makes sense.

I'm looking at page 4 in this pdf for the smokes:
http://www.systemsensor.com/pdf/I56-2170.pdf

It says 130ma limited by the panel. I have 7 of them.

The 2W-MOD2 say maximum alarm current 90ma.
http://www.systemsensor.com/pdf/A05-0349.pdf

The RRS Mod says 25ma
http://www.systemsensor.com/pdf/A05-0350.pdf

In regards to other items, I have 2 serial expanders, an ethernet expander, an input expander, and a m1ovr. I have to go take care of something but I will come back to this and finish up the math (although if anyone has any clarification on the smokes (not sure about the panel limited 130ma).

 

[Digger]

Mike,

The system sensor notation about the panel being limited to 130 ma is in regard to the 2 wire zone. The Elk is less than 130 ma on the zone if I remember correctly. That is to prevent the detector from being damaged.

Just check your total current in alarm and go from there in my opinion

 

[Mike]

Ok, my wife and son went out so I could test this.

Normally (non-alarm) current draw was .56 amps or so.

When in alarm it bounced a bit, going up to .65-.7 then jumping to 1.2 or so and back. Not sure if that is normal.

I tried getting out of that view and the keypad was still sluggish (in fact I did not get out of the current draw view, which I entered before triggering the alarm.

The summary of what I have:

Qty 7 System Sensor 2WTA smokes with integral sounder
Qty 2 Sentrol 240-COE Hardwire Carbon Monoxide Detector #841
Qty 1 System Sensor 2W-Mod2
Qty 1 System Sensor RRS-MOD
Qty 5 System Sensor Heat Detectors

1 Elk Echo speaker
No motion detectors (yet)
I disconnected the powered glass breaks earlier
Various Elk additions (2 Serial Expanders, an M1XOVR, Ethernet expansion, Wireless Expander, Input Expander).

I also checked the retransmission errors on the bus, it was at 5 and I watched it for 30 seconds and it did not increase.

One other thing I noticed today: I had added a few wireless sensors and went down to the panel. It sounded like a relay was tripped about every 2-3 seconds. I cycled the power for 20 seconds and turned it back on and it was fine (well no relay clicking). It was not doing this yesterday. I did upgrade some of the firmware (everything except the panel and XSP's) late last night and did not power cycle it manually.

 

[Mike]

One additional note: I had some false alarms awhile back, which I later tested and found to be the last leg of wiring in the attic, which was replaced. When that was happening though, I had it send me an email when it triggered.

One strange thing that I noticed: When the fire alarm triggers I got 12 emails. I let the alarm trigger (using a canned tester for the smokes) and it ran for about 15-20 seconds. I shut it off and back on, it triggered again for a second, which I shut it off, waited a minute and turned it back on.

My rule was:

Whenever any fire alarm turns on
Then Send email message1 to xxx
Then turn reversing relay (Out 3) on
Whenever any fire alarm cuts off
Then turn reversing relay (Out 3) off
Then anmounce Alarm Acknowledged (vm213) [ was a test]

Not sure if this provides another symptom (as the email should have only triggered once). I upgraded the ethernet adapter's firmware to the latest on last night.

 

[Digger]

Mike,

I think you can simplify things. The purple wire on the reversing mod is the trigger and can be triggered by the siren output. Then when you silence the main panel siren you will also silence the detectors. I beleive that it knows the difference between a temporal (fire) and a steady (burg) siren so hte detectors only sound on a fire (any fire even a thermal etc).

That will free up output 3 and eliminates the need for the rules (other than the rule for the email).


Your current draw seems to be well within limits from the information you have provided (although almost low based on the modules you have). The jumping to 1.2 amps in alarm is from the temporal siren most likely and if it is its basically normal in my opinion.

I gotta run out now. I will thnk about it some and let you know any ideas.

 

[Mike]

Thanks for the advice. I'll take a look at that. Simple is good.

 

[Mike]

On a separate note: Has anyone gotten the RRS-MOD to work with System Sensor smokes and the elk? I'm wondering if it can be something tied to the 2W-MOD2.

If I got the RRS-MOD to work separately, then the 2W-MOD2 isn't really needed (well it sends the cleanme signal, but it was rumoured that the elk supported that natively for the two wire smokes from System Sensor).

 

[Digger]

I was talking today to one of our regional sales engineers. He stated that he has heard from several pro installers that they are having difficulty with using both mods. They state they cant get the zone to reset

I have a test fixture built at work but I wont have time for a few days to evaluate it. I have some contacts at System Sensor that I will discuss this with as well if I see a problem.

 

[Mike]

Digger,

Thank you. That is exactly my symptom (I need to turn it off to reset it). I'll sit tight and see if you are able to find anything out. I suppose on one side it is 'positive' to hear that others have had the same problem (as that rules out a lot of silly items).

Thanks for looking at this.

 

[Digger]

I just spent 9 hours testing smoke detectors without the modules. I hope in the next day or so to get on testing with the mods.

I left the test setup right at the door to my office so my boss trips on it when he comes to see me :huh: That will be an incentive for him to let me work on it.

I will let you know.

 

[Digger]

Mike,

I am not sure how you have the modules wired but please look at the following as it might rectify your situation.

The Figure 5 and 6 wiring diagram from the System Sensor RRS-MOD Installation Instructions (D500-44-00/I56-2203-01) and the Figure 7 wiring diagram from the System Sensor Maintenance Module Installation Instructions (D500-46-00/I56-2174-002) show the correct wiring for Ademco panels. It indicates a 470 ohm resistor needs to be added across the white and orange leads of the RRS-MOD.

I believe that this will also work with the ELK M1 (and maybe Spanky can confirm this). I dont use 2 wire smokes at home so I cant test this with the M1 myself.

If you decide to try this please fully test the smokes on the zone to make sure they operate properly with this setup (I dont want you having a problem).

If you have tried this method and it still doesn't reset correctly let me know and I will see what else I can find out.

Good Luck!!!