paralysis by analysis

[uscpsycho]

Question probably for Work2Play, what about the Venstar T5800 which has drivers for both RTI and C4. Not sure about CQC. I agree that decoupling the temp sensor is a really good idea (there are C4 thermostats have this too) could I use a Lutron detached temp sensor in conjunction with the Venstar? And if I use a non-Lutron thermostat can I also incorporate SeeTemp controllers, or do I need a Lutron thermostat to use SeeTemp?
 
Lots and lots of great info here. Thanks so much guys!
 
Bottom line is yes, in selecting my components I do need to be sure I'm selecting products that are cross-compatible. So while I may not have to make the final automation decision now I do still need to figure out what will work with all three systems.
 
A lot of this thread has been CQC oriented but I'm looking for something that will work across the board. Sounds like on the alarm side HAI/ELK/DSC is the way to go. Is there a clear #1?
 
The RTI guys want to use RTI gear for audio distribution and the C4 guy wants to use C4 gear. Russound and Nuvo are popular third party options. Would that be the way to go to keep things compatible across the board and is there a clear #1?
 
For online streaming music I want to use Sonos because it works with the most services. I know Extra Vegetables makes a Sonos driver for C4 and RTI just came out with a Sonos driver. Any way to integrate Sonos into CQC?

 

[pete_c]

Sounds like on the alarm side HAI/ELK & DSC is the way to go. Is there a clear #1?

No.
 
Apples and Oranges.
 
Personally two 1's and one 2.  Both HAI and Elk are combination security and automation panels.  Elk has a bigger footprint while being very modular and the HAI has a smaller footprint and has stuff included.
 
The DSC historically has just been a security panel.  Personally have two HAI panels.  Oldest one is 10 years old or so and doing well. 
 
Elk (Moose) has been around a long time and is as old as 20 year old mountains. (figuratively speaking) and HAI was established around 1985 (29 years old).  Moose (before Elk) is older; not sure how old though.
 
Both Russound and Nuvo have been around a long time. Both are #1's.

 

[Dean Roddey]

CQC supports the Sonos as well.

 

[dgage]

Question probably for Work2Play, what about the Venstar T5800 which has drivers for both RTI and C4. Not sure about CQC. I agree that decoupling the temp sensor is a really good idea (there are C4 thermostats have this too) could I use a Lutron detached temp sensor in conjunction with the Venstar? And if I use a non-Lutron thermostat can I also incorporate SeeTemp controllers, or do I need a Lutron thermostat to use SeeTemp?
 
Lots and lots of great info here. Thanks so much guys!
 
Bottom line is yes, in selecting my components I do need to be sure I'm selecting products that are cross-compatible. So while I may not have to make the final automation decision now I do still need to figure out what will work with all three systems.
 
A lot of this thread has been CQC oriented but I'm looking for something that will work across the board. Sounds like on the alarm side HAI/ELK/DSC is the way to go. Is there a clear #1?
 
The RTI guys want to use RTI gear for audio distribution and the C4 guy wants to use C4 gear. Russound and Nuvo are popular third party options. Would that be the way to go to keep things compatible across the board and is there a clear #1?
 
For online streaming music I want to use Sonos because it works with the most services. I know Extra Vegetables makes a Sonos driver for C4 and RTI just came out with a Sonos driver. Any way to integrate Sonos into CQC?

Can't speak to the Venstar 5800 but I have had a Venstar wireless (not wifi but wireless with control in hallway and remote in bedroom). It has worked perfectly for years,

Good idea on selecting components to go either direction.

I did some in depth comparisons of HAI and Elk last year and it really comes down to half a dozen of one, 6 of the other. But that was before HAI raised the prices. I think the Elk is a better value now with comparable core functionality. HAI has a little stronger integration with HAI music pieces/lighting but it doesn't sound like you're going to use that functionality. So I'd say either would be good but the Elk would likely give you everything you need for a few hundred less. Then again, that isn't much in the grand scheme,

My only issue with Russound and Nivo is that there have been concerns raised of their support of some of their older streaming systems. Just a question, if you're going to use Sonos, why do you need to use Russound or Nuvo?

By the way, several of the latest theaters I've been following that bought the big boy JTR 215RT speakers ended up using a computer with Jriver software. That sounds super powerful and customizable. You could even use it for the whole home distributed audio. Just one other item to consider.

 

[FlyingDiver]

Personally two 1's and one 2.  Both HAI and Elk are combination security and automation panels.  Elk has a bigger footprint while being very modular and the HAI has a smaller footprint and has stuff included.
 
The DSC historically has just been a security panel.

 
If you're running a separate full featured HA system, is there any advantage to going with an HAI or Elk panel over the DSC?  That assumes the HA system integrates with the DSC, of course, but that seems pretty straightforward using either serial or IP interface.

 

[dgage]

 
If you're running a separate full featured HA system, is there any advantage to going with an HAI or Elk panel over the DSC?  That assumes the HA system integrates with the DSC, of course, but that seems pretty straightforward using either serial or IP interface.

I would say your point is a good one and valid. However, at least on this board it is almost always Elk this or HAI that. Which means they've been doing integration for a long time and are proven. Is DSC or something else as proven? That's a good question.

 

[Roadie]

I currently have a DSC and am looking to (probably) go with an Elk.  With the Elk I don't think I will use the DSC as it seems to just be a duplication of functions and unneeded complexity.

 

[FlyingDiver]

I would say your point is a good one and valid. However, at least on this board it is almost always Elk this or HAI that. Which means they've been doing integration for a long time and are proven. Is DSC or something else as proven? That's a good question.

 
DSC is a well proven alarm panel.  Elk and HAI seem to be very good if you want to do automation in your panel.  Since I have a totally different HA system, I don't see any point in paying more for a panel that also does HA.  Splitting HA functions between the two seems like a recipe for confusion.  
 
I would also say that, on this board, it's always "Elk this, HAI that, CQC does both".    

 

[dgage]

DSC is a well proven alarm panel.  Elk and HAI seem to be very good if you want to do automation in your panel.  Since I have a totally different HA system, I don't see any point in paying more for a panel that also does HA.  Splitting HA functions between the two seems like a recipe for confusion.  
 
I would also say that, on this board, it's always "Elk this, HAI that, CQC does both".  

So are you integrating CQC or anything with your DSC panel to do some automation?  Like changing temps and turning off lights when you arm the DSC security system?  If so, I would agree that DSC is plenty.

 

[pete_c]

Yeah here started the software automation with initially WIndows 3.1; it was only X-10.  Fast forward to 90's; updated software and I was able to connect to more hardware and run some scripting "do whats".
 
Continued to play with software; then purchased the HAI OPII panel.  I mention the "heartbeat" of the home which is just referring to the scheduling of the lighting, HVAC stuff, and managing audio hardware by the OPII panel.
 
I have some interaction between hardware in the scripting on the panel.  The software does though connect to the same / similiar hardware (its a hobby); but it does run more complex stuff.
 
"the package delivery" is an event with multiple pieces including email, video recorded event, door bell stuff, so forth and so on.  The software can do it all.
 
I have multiple temperature / humidity sensors on the OPII panel.  I am into 1-wire devices and currently have some 4 networks with a variety of sensors.  I added two water meters for example to measure water use.
 
I utilize a way2call box for my telephone lines.  The software management of the w2c box is unique.  I see the two; software automation and hardware automation complimenting each other and being redundant and resilient.
 
If the power is off; I still cannot turn on my lights with the OPII panel, but I can see my touchscreens and utilize the alarm functions. 
 
One day in the early 2000's and getting the family ready for summer vacation; I did lose the CPU fan on the automation software computer.    It was two days before vacation.  Personally it was an issue for me.  (not the wife though).  I did run out of the house to purchase a CPU fan.  It was very low on the WAF.

 

[tmbrown97]

I'd probably go Elk because you don't need all the inputs and items that come with HAI since your main controller would be separate; that said I would see if the DSC reports status the same way - with a driver, can you see every zone trip and status change? If so that's all you need; although with the Elk you can also use rules and areas to do pretty trick things entirely inside the security system.
 
I agree - if you like Sonos, do a stack of the sonos connect:amp's tied to the speakers of your choosing and be done.  I wish they'd come out with a better form factor for when people really want 6 or 12 sonos zones; once you get the hardware installed, the rest is pretty slick with how you can group rooms and play from all the popular music sources.
 
To answer the specific question about the thermostat - they're really intended as a matched set - the seetemp and the wireless temp sensor are meant to talk to each other and the RadioRa2 repeater - although they can also work even if the repeater goes offline.  It may be possible to get the temperature reading from one to the other if the RTI or Control4 processors are able to see and react to both but it feels a little kludgy to me. 
 
@pete - I'm with ya on the pre-vacation... there's always something I'm wrapping up frantically before I leave - just a couple weeks ago, it was wiring up the garage doors back into the Elk before I left town because something caused insane interference in our neighborhood for a few days - absolutely no garage door remotes would work more than a foot from the motor/receiver, which meant there was no way to get the door open/closed as we pulled the cars in/out and I didn't want to leave my wife with that inconvenience.  Usually it's making sure the HA is working; a fresh set of backups in the safe; cameras are put out in the living space, etc.

 

[FlyingDiver]

So are you integrating CQC or anything with your DSC panel to do some automation?  Like changing temps and turning off lights when you arm the DSC security system?  If so, I would agree that DSC is plenty.

 
Yes, I'm doing exactly that.  Not CQC, I'm using Indigo.

 

[uscpsycho]

CQC supports the Sonos as well.

 
Can you elaborate? CQC supports it in terms of basic functions or can you control it the same as if you were using the Sonos app?
 

Can't speak to the Venstar 5800 but I have had a Venstar wireless (not wifi but wireless with control in hallway and remote in bedroom). It has worked perfectly for years,

Good idea on selecting components to go either direction.

I did some in depth comparisons of HAI and Elk last year and it really comes down to half a dozen of one, 6 of the other. But that was before HAI raised the prices. I think the Elk is a better value now with comparable core functionality. HAI has a little stronger integration with HAI music pieces/lighting but it doesn't sound like you're going to use that functionality. So I'd say either would be good but the Elk would likely give you everything you need for a few hundred less. Then again, that isn't much in the grand scheme,

My only issue with Russound and Nivo is that there have been concerns raised of their support of some of their older streaming systems. Just a question, if you're going to use Sonos, why do you need to use Russound or Nuvo?

By the way, several of the latest theaters I've been following that bought the big boy JTR 215RT speakers ended up using a computer with Jriver software. That sounds super powerful and customizable. You could even use it for the whole home distributed audio. Just one other item to consider.

 
I'm not sure I follow you wrt the Venstar. Do you control yours with its own remote or through your HA? 
 
As for the Russound and Nuvo, what older streaming systems are you referring to? Or do you mean older streaming services, such as Pandora? That's probably the oldest one.
 
I know both Russound and Nuvo can handle online streaming but I don't plan to use them for those purposes. I plan to strictly use them for audio distribution, the only Sonos I will have is a Sonos Connect which will be one of the sources to Russound or Nuvo. The Sonos Connect is compatible with far more streaming services than anyone else. And it is the only one that works with Songza and Google Play Music which are the only streaming services I use. I've also started using the brand new Amazon Prime Music service and expect Sonos to support this as well since they already support the Amazon Cloud Player.
 

I currently have a DSC and am looking to (probably) go with an Elk.  With the Elk I don't think I will use the DSC as it seems to just be a duplication of functions and unneeded complexity.

 
I am confused here. You have DSC, are going to get Elk but then don't think you will use the DSC? You are considering using two alarms?
 

DSC is a well proven alarm panel.  Elk and HAI seem to be very good if you want to do automation in your panel.  Since I have a totally different HA system, I don't see any point in paying more for a panel that also does HA.  Splitting HA functions between the two seems like a recipe for confusion.  
 
I would also say that, on this board, it's always "Elk this, HAI that, CQC does both".  

 
I'm confused by this because I don't know what you're referring to by "panel". Do you mean the actual brain or do you mean the keypad? Both are often referred to as "panels" which makes some of the alarm discussion hard to follow.
 

I'd probably go Elk because you don't need all the inputs and items that come with HAI since your main controller would be separate; that said I would see if the DSC reports status the same way - with a driver, can you see every zone trip and status change? If so that's all you need; although with the Elk you can also use rules and areas to do pretty trick things entirely inside the security system.
 
I agree - if you like Sonos, do a stack of the sonos connect:amp's tied to the speakers of your choosing and be done.  I wish they'd come out with a better form factor for when people really want 6 or 12 sonos zones; once you get the hardware installed, the rest is pretty slick with how you can group rooms and play from all the popular music sources.
 
To answer the specific question about the thermostat - they're really intended as a matched set - the seetemp and the wireless temp sensor are meant to talk to each other and the RadioRa2 repeater - although they can also work even if the repeater goes offline.  It may be possible to get the temperature reading from one to the other if the RTI or Control4 processors are able to see and react to both but it feels a little kludgy to me. 

 
It sounds like Elk and HAI are really the way to go. Even if I don't use the automation features, they are there. If I go with RTI or C4 I guess I'd default to whatever system the installer is most comfortable with. If I decide to explore the CQC route I guess I'd go with Elk.
 
The house currently has an ADT system. Safe to assume that ADT is not going to integrate with the HA as well as Elk or HAI (that is if ADT will integrate at all)? 
 
As I said, only using the Sonos as an audio source, just Sonos Connect, no Connect:Amp's.
 
Regarding the seetemp/thermostat/wireless sensor scenarios, I found a couple of really informative (and easy to digest) documents from Lutron in case anyone now or in the future wants to read up on them:
http://www.lutron.com/TechnicalDocumentLibrary/367-2020.pdf
http://resi.lutron.com/Portals/3/Support/App%20Notes%20-%20FAQs/HWQS/Lutron%20Thermostat%20App%20Note%20Rev%20A.pdf

 

[FlyingDiver]

I'm confused by this because I don't know what you're referring to by "panel". Do you mean the actual brain or do you mean the keypad? Both are often referred to as "panels" which makes some of the alarm discussion hard to follow.

 
The panel is the circuit board that everything else connects to.  The "brain", if you will.  That's pretty standard terminology IME.  A more precise term would be FACP, which stands for Fire Alarm Control Panel.  Aka "panel".
 
A Keypad is a keypad, and it's a user interface device only.  Well, except for systems like 2Gig, where it's (almost) all wireless and the brain is in the "master" keypad. 

 

[pete_c]

The house currently has an ADT system. Safe to assume that ADT is not going to integrate with the HA as well as Elk or HAI (that is if ADT will integrate at all)

 
Relating to the legacy panel I would look at the wiring / zones etc stuff to see what you can utilize in the future.  Whole rooms with multiple devices may be connected to one zone and you may want to get granular or just add more stuff.  A few years back here helped a neighbor update from a legacy alarm panel to an HAI OPII panel.  The wiring was OK.  I redid some of it, (including EOL stuff) and replaced much of the hardware (switches).
 
The Elk / HAI panel personally are more DIY friendly.  The integration of a DSC panel is relatively new.  I am not saying it doesn't work.
 
My preference though relates to the security firmware already built into the ELK/HAI panels versus software management of an alarm panel.  That said it can get involved a bit with the use of redundant power, redundant networking stuff.   This does go into the world of security / automation which is still very new.  HAI/ELK have been doing this for years where as DSC automation integration is relatively new.
 
Many folks today are using Sonos as an audio source on their hardware zoned amplifiers which works well.  One other "thing" to address / look at are the placement and types of zoned audio speakers you are looking to utilize.  Here I went to in wall speakers (some in FL are on the ceiling).  Its been a few years now.  I did hard wire the zoned speakers to one location. I also wired catXX to the room / area of the speaker.  Initially utilized Leviton's chopin digital volume controls.  I then went to using Russound zoned audio amplifiers using the same cabling (speaker and control).
 
I also went to utilizing an AB8SS many years ago.  Its still online today and working fine.  It was built to last a long time.
 
AB8SS
 

Decora Chopin® Digital Stereo Volume Controls

• All-electronic version provides system designers with a unique solution for custom audio installation
• No direct speaker/amplifier connections required at the volume control wall unit