Pet Peeve as a pro

[Digger]

"Codes" (NEC, NFPA, IBC etc) are guidelines. Something can meet code and be unsafe and something can violate code and be safe. AHJ's interpret codes differently as well.

That being said unless someone knows for sure that something is unsafe then why knock it.

By using plumbing conduit on low voltage wiring there is a level of mechanical protection being added. Personally I never have done it that way but I doubt it is unsafe. Does it meet/violate code? May depend on who you ask.

 

[Del91574]

The tone of this thread is definitely unfortunate because I would really like to know the reasoning against using PVC plumbing "conduit" for low voltage wiring and whether it is really "against code" or just "bad practice". I have used white PVC for runs before (just in my own home, I am no pro) mostly because the selection for electrical conduit at the home center isn't very complete. Is color just to be able to determine what is plumbing and what is low voltage wiring?

The electrical conduit has UV inhibitors in it's formulation. While PVC conduit in Arizona or Florida sunlight will tend to get brittle, those are extreme examples. I can't go into what's involved and/or contained in the UL listings, because it's not what's important, but the main thing that always gets brought up is it is listed for it's purpose, which is electrical wiring, so obviously there's some testing and other items done which plumbing pipe has not gone through.

There's a reason to not use plumbing fittings, which is they don't maintain the bend radius for cabling, as well as being almost impossible to run a snake through for fishing wiring. Same reasons why you shouldn't have more than 4 90's in a pipe run and the formulas for conduit fill....not just for heat dissipation on HV conductors or to make the runs more difficult. As far as being against code, mechanical protection or not,the AHJ's in my state would fail the install, as well as if something were to happen and insurance underwriters were involved....they would walk away from any claim because of the violations, which I have seen happen before on fire AND burglary jobs installed by others in such manners. May not be an issue with the majority of the CT forum, as I think getting the installs inspected and signed off on aren't commonplace, unless it's different in other areas of the country altogether.

I'm not mentioning the old HV installs and some LV installs around here where the wiring is actually inside black iron piping, which was the original gas piping in a lot of these houses prior to a complete electrical install and modified when the homes were electrified.

As far as Zigbee and the contemporaries go (Zwave, etc.), I am limited to what the manufacturers use as their protocols for RF remote control interfaces....AMX, Crestron and others. I didn't pick it, I'm just limited in what I can run wiring for when a system isn't completely specified out of the box, because if I knew they were going with Crestron, then I could pull Crestron cable, otherwise I have to do my best to anticipate and be able to adapt the wiring after the fact, so I'm stuck running a siamese Cat6 for "control" of the TV's at the moment. Same reason why I'm stuck running component video using MAC-6....HDMI baluns are only good for a certain distance, then after that you've got sync issues or the resolution gets kicked down to 1080p or lower because of the lack of bandwidth. Would I love to get away with pulling less cabling and less heavy stuff, you bet, but I'm limited to what's on the market.

Work- I've had more "engineers" and engineer types talk down to field techs because of their views of superiority in their knowledge of how something works, how to make it work, etc. so honestly, I find the holier than thou attitude to be the exact reverse. There's engineers and then there's what I consider myself to be, a specialist in low voltage wiring, installations, and integrations. I relate it as a Dr. vs a surgeon. The Dr. can tell you how something is supposed to be done, and while technically they can perform the surgery, I know I'd rather have the surgeon doing the specific consult and the procedure as they have the practical knowledge and experience specific to the procedure to be performed and how to perform it.

My favorite (off topic) story of this is a electical engineer that was modifying their network in the house we were LV contracting in. They lost their IP connection across the board and the blame was everyone else that was there....us, the ISP, the modem manufacturer, the cabling, the fiber attenuation...everything. I had great pride in taking their network rack apart to find that this guy took his HDSL filter and filtered out the net off his lines himself...then was tagged on to his neighbor's wifi connection for about a year or so while the house was being final'ed, until the neighbor locked down their net. I had great pride in providing the network certifications and documentation from the Fluke as well as the pictures of his "modification/improvement" and the nice bill for certifing the cabling within the house (his request/rant). All the while he got a "yes Mr. XXX" because of we were "playing" where he's clearly the expert.

 

[WayneW]

I saw a picture with comments somewhere that implied (at least to me) that multiple runs of NM wire were run inside a conduit. AFAIK, it is against some/all codes to run NM/Romex (standard 14/2, etc, with a sheath) inside any sort of tubing/conduit and that one must use individual wires (no sheath/jacket, such as THHN wire).

 

[Del91574]

I saw a picture with comments somewhere that implied (at least to me) that multiple runs of NM wire were run inside a conduit. AFAIK, it is against some/all codes to run NM/Romex (standard 14/2, etc, with a sheath) inside any sort of tubing/conduit and that one must use individual wires (no sheath/jacket, such as THHN wire).

At least another person saw the same pictures that brought part of the original post about. As I said, I'm not going to post a picture or direct link, but the pictures are in the gallery as well as cited within a blog which details what was done and how it was done.

Wayne, NM/Romex can be run in conduit without the sheath being removed as long as the conduit is properly sized and conductors are derated if need be.

The specific pictures were of conduit Run #1-4 showed plumbing pipe and fittings as well as what sure implied in "electric PVC" that as many conductors/cables could be installed within a "conduit" as physically fit as well as what was implied regarding the ampacity of the cabling being installed combined with what appears to not be installed within the pictures, such as grommets and bushings for the cable knockout....which sure appears to be overloaded as well, too many cables entering a single knockout.

I was commenting on what I saw as well as what was represented by somebody else and posted themselves to be, period. I also referred to what I saw in those pictures as well as installed in the field in situations such as these. The stuff I saw in the pictures appeared to be dangerous to say the least.

 

[gatchel]

I do mostly commercial installations of CCTV, Access control, etc. in PA "professionally".

I typically find that I am displeased when I open a can of another "three letter" company's work. Some stuff I have seen would make you puke in your mouth. The reality is that I also work for a "Three Letter " company. I do things better than most of what I have seen and strive to better myself every day. Don't forget that someone can always do it better and cleaner. I find that giving the customer what they are expecting or slightly more is the best way to go about a job. Some customers want everything in hard pipe above the ceiling and some customers really don't care what above the ceiling looks like.

Every job can't be "perfect work" because you would never be profitable. If you are profitable and do perfect work and the customers pay you for 99% of your time on the job then you are one of the lucky few.

I once worked for a company who did work for 2 major gas/chemical companies and major utilities all over the country. We would install some of the best quality and coolest products and they wouldn't even balk at the price. Now I work somewhere else installing decent but competitive products nut not the best of the best that I was used to. I make 10 to 15% more money now and do less work and have much less stress, go figure.

Jobs come down to economics. We have to make money and be profitable. Customers have to get a good value for their money and save money where ever they can. It always comes down to money. No one is going to do "perfect work" for the same price as a trunk slammer if they couldn't pay their employees or put food on the table.

 

[AnthonyZ]

As far as Zigbee and the contemporaries go (Zwave, etc.), I am limited to what the manufacturers use as their protocols for RF remote control interfaces....AMX, Crestron and others. I didn't pick it, I'm just limited in what I can run wiring for when a system isn't completely specified out of the box, because if I knew they were going with Crestron, then I could pull Crestron cable, otherwise I have to do my best to anticipate and be able to adapt the wiring after the fact, so I'm stuck running a siamese Cat6 for "control" of the TV's at the moment. Same reason why I'm stuck running component video using MAC-6....HDMI baluns are only good for a certain distance, then after that you've got sync issues or the resolution gets kicked down to 1080p or lower because of the lack of bandwidth. Would I love to get away with pulling less cabling and less heavy stuff, you bet, but I'm limited to what's on the market.

Some people just bring the worst out in me. You're one of them. You start a thread with the sole purpose of bashing others and then spew nothing less than nonsense. This is the most incoherent gibberish I've ever heard come from a "surgeon's" mouth. You really should just stop while you're ahead. You seem to think that you are an expert at control and AV but, it's clear that you should stick to alarms, DEL.

 

[Del91574]

Tony, I'll explain it for you since you slammed what wiring methods I have to use and seemed to misintrepret the applications where wiring is needed for a proper deployment of Zigbee in the applications I referred to. I am unaware of what your integration background is, as well as the product lines you are familiar with, install or have worked with, so I will explain what we are using and integrating with when we aren't using Crestron.

The usage of Zigbee in large (10K+ sq ft.) integration projects where there are few Zigbee devices being integrated for a mesh network and having reliable control across the network tend to be mutually exclusive items. Typically we are not using or installing mesh network solutions in these projects as the reliability and performance in past retrofits where there had been little choice on other wired solutions have been less than perfect. In a rough in situation, it is far easier to go hardwired back to the controller route rather than build a whole mesh network when it simply isn't needed. Typically we are using Vantage for the lighting, then integrated to the AMX, so no Zigbee there. Follow that with remote temperature sensors (no zigbee there either) and T-stats.....that really leaves few choices to get a zigbee network up and running for what amounts to a remote for the audio and video zones.

AMX hardware uses Zigbee for their integration of their remote controls for system control. I am typically installing NetLinx controllers with the Zigbee gateways/repeaters in an Arlington in-wall box behind the flat screens or the displays specifically for the remote control of the Netlinx, display and the attached and controlled input/outputs that are being viewed on the monitors where they are installed.

The touchscreens and UI's for the AMX are the ones controlling everything else via the Netlinx and what is connected to it. The only iems that aren't technically 100% integrated are security, because we always install one of the manufacturer's full usage keypads in additon to the AMX or Crestron setup as a redundancy, because failures do happen, and frankly, the security setups almost always have a full fire alarm, CO and other life safety items.

 

[AnthonyZ]

I'm humble enough to pull my foot from my mouth long enough to respond. First, the Zigbee gateway cabling makes sense. Thank you for clarifying. Second, the fact that you're placing cabling in wall because you don't know what you will be installing doesn't. Your posts imply that the systems installed aren't engineered. Third, I didn't slam your cabling methods but certainly did intend to slam your attitude. You've come across as rude and insecure since you joined CT.

 

[wuench]

Work- I've had more "engineers" and engineer types talk down to field techs because of their views of superiority in their knowledge of how something works, how to make it work, etc. so honestly, I find the holier than thou attitude to be the exact reverse. There's engineers and then there's what I consider myself to be, a specialist in low voltage wiring, installations, and integrations. I relate it as a Dr. vs a surgeon. The Dr. can tell you how something is supposed to be done, and while technically they can perform the surgery, I know I'd rather have the surgeon doing the specific consult and the procedure as they have the practical knowledge and experience specific to the procedure to be performed and how to perform it.

Hahaha, I am a Network Engineer and I agree with you there, especially having just spent hours in our engineering lab this week ripping out old patches, dealing with CAT5 cables with no tabs left and a general mess, just to get cabled up for my testing. Installers have a skill set that most engineers don't. I joke all the time at work about "Engineering Installs", usually cables stretched across racks, etc.... You can tell when the engineers have been in the data center messing around.....

 

[pete_c]

Personally the standards are in their infancy and evolving. There are base guidelines and new national guidelines. I have yet to see a local contractor building new homes following these guidelines.

One may profess to be an expert; or may state one technology is better than another; or one methodology is better than another is really good for the self esteem and I admire that.

 

[Del91574]

I'm humble enough to pull my foot from my mouth long enough to respond. First, the Zigbee gateway cabling makes sense. Thank you for clarifying. Second, the fact that you're placing cabling in wall because you don't know what you will be installing doesn't. Your posts imply that the systems installed aren't engineered. Third, I didn't slam your cabling methods but certainly did intend to slam your attitude. You've come across as rude and insecure since you joined CT.

These systems areengineered and 99% of the time we know if it's a Crestron or an AMX is going in out of the box. The difficulties lie when a mild integration project starts to grow after the walls are up. There's a whole process, and just like how these houses are built, we usually end up with a huge stack of prints, revisions and change orders as the client, architect, interior designers and whoever else are involved. Rewiring whole sections of house to put in an additional pair of Cat. 6 control cables or whatever else isn't cost effective when they can be pulled with each individual trunk as we go. Same goes with how many circuits like fire, lighting and a few other get pulled as a whole loop, starting from and ending at the head end, so if there's a wiring issue or the circuit needs to be split (such as too many devices or if the overzealous sheetrocker got a wire) it's possible without being painted in a corner or having to rip open walls and ceilings to have to fix the system or hope it can be brought up and running.

We've had to rip out a completed and inspected rough on a 25K' house that was originally set to be AMX and then rewire for Crestron...just because the client liked the keypads they used on their vacation better than the AMX units. The best I can do is attempt to plan for what is going in at the moment as well as what I can forsee as modifications during the honeymoon stage and the related punchlists, when I am limited by the cabling in place at (usually) 80-90% of the locations within these houses. We've had projects that the house had been in construction for 2+ years from when the rough was started, where mounts, that were framed for, became obsolete and no longer available, monitors changed where their specific inputs and power connections were, so nothing is ever truly set in stone until we are off the job 100%.

The best I can do is attempt to plan for the majority of contingencies and avoid what could be emergencies.

 

[tmbrown97]

Work- I've had more "engineers" and engineer types talk down to field techs because of their views of superiority in their knowledge of how something works, how to make it work, etc. so honestly, I find the holier than thou attitude to be the exact reverse. There's engineers and then there's what I consider myself to be, a specialist in low voltage wiring, installations, and integrations. I relate it as a Dr. vs a surgeon. The Dr. can tell you how something is supposed to be done, and while technically they can perform the surgery, I know I'd rather have the surgeon doing the specific consult and the procedure as they have the practical knowledge and experience specific to the procedure to be performed and how to perform it.

I don't talk down to the techs - and in return I expect them not to talk down to me. I prefer to respect people for what they're good at - and as you saw from my post, I have no problem saying what I'm not good at.

Another comparison is the PhD Teacher vs. the person applying the knowledge (pick your subject) - the Teacher generally knows everything about how and why it should work, but likely lacks the real-world experience that only comes from time in the trenches doing it. I generally have the knowledge but depending on the subject I may not have the hands-on experience. I'll talk to you like an equal - and listen and learn - and challenge anything that doesn't make sense, then go do more homework. But that's me - I realize there are plenty of others out there that work differently.

Hahaha, I am a Network Engineer and I agree with you there, especially having just spent hours in our engineering lab this week ripping out old patches, dealing with CAT5 cables with no tabs left and a general mess, just to get cabled up for my testing. Installers have a skill set that most engineers don't. I joke all the time at work about "Engineering Installs", usually cables stretched across racks, etc.... You can tell when the engineers have been in the data center messing around.....

No argument from me on that one! I'm better now but there were plenty of times I took some pretty bad shortcuts and let someone else clean it up later... until a couple times where I had to clean up someone else's sloppy work - now I want it done right the first time.

For IT rooms I've come to appreciate monoprice and deepsurplus - when I start any wiring project now, I measure out and order the best length cables and all brand-new so when I start it's quick, easy and clean... and usually doesn't cost more than a couple hundred in cabling max depending on the size of the job.