Phase coupling advice needed

[vamike]

I have a larger home (>8k sq ft) with 600amp service, OmniPro II, HAI PIM and ~100 HAI switches (with a few SA outlets). The electric service is split into 3 200amp panels. In addition I have a "critical circuit" 100amp panel supplied via a transfer switch from a 100 amp circuit off one of the 200amp panels and a generator. The OmniPro II and PIM are on a circuit in this 100amp panel, and right next to this circuit I have an HAI 39A00-1 phase coupler.

I've had recent noise and unreliability in my system. I'm addressing the worst of the noise culprits with Simply Automated plug-in filters (SAZNF10A-P's on order...I hope they work). However, on the "other" phase, Upstart shows device signal strengths ranging from 7-13 across the ~50 switches on that leg.

My question: if 7-13 signal strength is on the weak side, should I consider additional phase couplers in some or all of the 200amp panels for more "paths", or even consider something like a 39A00-2 split phase repeater?

I know troubleshooting this often a trial and error, but for all I know you guys with much more experience may say 7-13 is fine and don't waste your time or money on more phase coupling, focus on noise suppression.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[tmbrown97]

7-13 should be just fine. I've had switches work just fine down into the 4's without any issue.

If you go to phase couple, you'll have to deal with repeaters vs. phase couplers since you have a mix of Gen I and Gen II.

 

[ano]

What ultimatly matters is signal-to-noise ratio. 7 to 13 signal isn't all that terrible, but it could be better, of course. If you can find your noise sources, it never hurts to reduce those. There is no best option, but if its all working, then I think you have your answer. If some of the switches aren't working reliably, usually getting the signal up is best, but after you have a few couplers in, there isn't a whole lot more you can do.

Only consider a repearter if all your switches are Gen II. If some are Gen I, like the SA ones, UPStart will not be able to "see" them and they won't be able to communicate back. If you can live with that, repeaters are great.

 

[pete_c]

Curious how I as a UPB user using Upstart can tell what is a gen 1 versus a gen 2 UPB switch. I have HAI, PCS and SA UPB switches.

IE: My
1 - HAI FW versions show FW V 01.0X
2 - PCS FW versions show FW V 05.49
3 - SA FW versions show FW V 02.XX and FW V 01.XX (Is the 01.XX gen 1? Think these are the oldest today?)

I could always see all of them until the neighbors installed their pool; then my signals went way down (to nothing). This was with a phase coupler in place.

I then added a repeater and my signals went way up and now I see everything just fine.

Curious what is the difference between a UPB PCS phase coupler and an HAI phase coupler and an SA phase coupler?

I have all three and right now just have the SA phase coupler in place (OFF now)

Did a quickie Upstart Communications test with a maybe SA Gen 1 switch? Just running with the SA phase coupler and nothing else noticed failed communications attempts. With both the SA Phase Coupler on and the HAI Repeater on had poor signals. With just the HAI Repeater on had great signals. The mailbox (brick structure with glass blocks and 120 VAC illumination) is curbside from the home maybe some 50-75 feet away but the UPB switch is next to the front coach lamp switch.

I recall reading something on the PCS site about no real difference between Gen 1 and Gen 2 switches other than the name and it being some advertisement ploy. What is the difference between an in phase and out of phase coupler and who makes what?

Here recently updated switches to multitoggle and dual power from multiple switches in double boxes.

Personally as long as the lights function then I really don't pay attention to the signals much.

BTW which version of Upstart is considered the "best"?

I noticed different options with different MFGs Upstart software.

 

[tmbrown97]

I thought I read something semi vague about how SAI's switches can now work through repeaters; but I don't know if that's true and if so, I don't know when it became true. SAI's switches are all considered Gen I.

One nice thing about the SAI inverting phase couplers is that you can add a bunch of them if you need to - in all your sub panels, at the dryer, etc - and they should keep improving the signal. In my house, I have to run two - one at the panel and one at the dryer - or I lose 4 of my switches.

Would be nice if you could find a way to clean the power signal coming into your home - but part of how your UPB signal jumps phases is by going all the way back to the transformer and back on the other leg, so I'm not sure if you could do a choke on the incoming power and rely on just phase couplers... it's over my head.

 

[pete_c]

I've seen the option of using the repeater on Upstart but not really seen much of a change in the signal when using the option for the UPB switch.

What is an SAI inverting phase coupler?

I tested above with an SA ZPZI-W phase coupler and it's killing my UPB signal.