Problems with motions...another option

[drvnbysound]

I have a 10-lb shihtzu, but am confident that she can't set off the alarm... and she sleeps on the backs of our couches. Again, I have 40-lb PIRs though (which is what yours says it's rated at).
 
Just browsing through Honeywell's offerings, they have a 80-lb PIR that is in their wireless line: http://www.security.honeywell.com/hsc/products/intruder-detection-systems/wireless/motion-sensor/34210.html

 

[Del91574]

The height of the animal is the issue and not the detector itself....no PI based detector will work with an animal at 5' AFF. What you may need to do is mask off areas where the animal would be "seen" at height, such as the middle of the pattern and "look" down each wall, assuming the unit is within a corner. The goal of a PIR is to detect someone entering an area, not the movement within an area. The PI function is not a item of weight, but mass. Think of the mass of a 15# dog vs. an 80# dog, then where the IR pattern of the animal is....the animal shouldn't be 4-5' above the floor (assuming an unfurnished room). Same theory applies when using quad or multi-element detectors.
 
Stress detectors can be adjusted...but you need to plan for an impact of an animal if it jumps and lands. A 15# dog jumping and landing is going to be "seen" as a far larger event than walking or slightly active in a space.

 

[jmed999]

 

The height of the animal is the issue and not the detector itself....no PI based detector will work with an animal at 5' AFF. What you may need to do is mask off areas where the animal would be "seen" at height, such as the middle of the pattern and "look" down each wall, assuming the unit is within a corner. The goal of a PIR is to detect someone entering an area, not the movement within an area. The PI function is not a item of weight, but mass. Think of the mass of a 15# dog vs. an 80# dog, then where the IR pattern of the animal is....the animal shouldn't be 4-5' above the floor (assuming an unfurnished room). Same theory applies when using quad or multi-element detectors.
 
Stress detectors can be adjusted...but you need to plan for an impact of an animal if it jumps and lands. A 15# dog jumping and landing is going to be "seen" as a far larger event than walking or slightly active in a space.

 
DEL, Thanks for replying!  I was hoping you would join the party  
 
To the original question...do you think glass break sensors and window contact sensors a good option for replacing motions?
 
Thanks again for your input!

 

[drvnbysound]

Sure, let me know where you live, so I can cut a hole in your wall or front door and walk in undetected
 
In my limited experience with PIR, I've felt that it detected (or did not detect) based on physical size; similar to video analysis which would use pixels on a target. A 10lb, 40lb, or 80lb dog is going to be of a certain size; you won't find an 10lb elephant. However, as it gets closer to the sensor it will appear to be bigger -  a spider that crawls across the face of the PIR will usually set it off, because it looks huge at that distance.
 
As mentioned above, I have a 10lb shihtzu who sleeps on the back of our couch. Our couch and loveseat are in the same room as the PIR and are no more than 20ft away from the PIR. At the nearest end of the couch, it's probably 10ft from the sensor; it's 40lb pet immune.

 

[Del91574]

Sure, let me know where you live, so I can cut a hole in your wall or front door and walk in undetected
 
In my limited experience with PIR, I've felt that it detected (or did not detect) based on physical size; similar to video analysis which would use pixels on a target. A 10lb, 40lb, or 80lb dog is going to be of a certain size; you won't find an 10lb elephant. However, as it gets closer to the sensor it will appear to be bigger -  a spider that crawls across the face of the PIR will usually set it off, because it looks huge at that distance.
 
As mentioned above, I have a 10lb shihtzu who sleeps on the back of our couch. Our couch and loveseat are in the same room as the PIR and are no more than 20ft away from the PIR. At the nearest end of the couch, it's probably 10ft from the sensor; it's 40lb pet immune.

Think you're missing the point. But for reference, I have seen holes cut into the side of a house AND a person use golf cleats to scale the side of a house to get in through a skylight in a great room (security screen caught that).
 
Without getting into the science and operations of how a PIR works...size really isn't a huge part of how they function...it's optics and the pyro itself and how the contrasting IR presents itself.
 
If I install a PIR in a corner looking down each wall the coverage between the 90 degree sweep of the detector is inconsequential in most installations. A burglar is not going to plop into the middle of the coverage pattern and the goal of a PIR is redundancy and to deny movement from an unprotected area (generally outside) to inside. A PIR works by seeing movement across multiple segments of it's view, not to mention the design of the detector comes into play (fresnel lens, mirror optics, etc.) A smaller dog that does not move through multiple segments of the pattern (such as a pet on the rear of a couch) may not set it off if the angle is appropriate to be in the same segment, but may set it off if the movement is across multiple segments in the pattern.

 

[tmbrown97]

Back to the original question though - door/window detectors should really always be used - they're your first line of defense, and ideally you'd like to trigger the alarm BEFORE someone makes it into your house.  The alarm is of little value once they're inside depending on what they're there to do.  Sure they wouldn't be able to camp out and spend the weekend emptying out your house (happened to a friend of mine) but if they're already inside, then once the alarm trips they still grab the laptop off the counter and run; or worse, cause bodily harm.  It's far better to alert them to the alarm and the police to the attempt before they make it into the house.
 
Motions and interior detection help verify a break-in or catch someone who managed to evade your door/window sensors - which there are a few ways to do.
 
If it were me, I'd add the glass-breaks and window sensors and then follow DEL's tips on masking the PIR.  Most people don't tune their PIRs correctly - they just install them and leave them - but there's a lot more you can do with them.

 

[drvnbysound]

Think you're missing the point. But for reference, I have seen holes cut into the side of a house AND a person use golf cleats to scale the side of a house to get in through a skylight in a great room (security screen caught that).

 
That was exactly my point... to the question:
 

DEL, Thanks for replying!  I was hoping you would join the party
 
To the original question...do you think glass break sensors and window contact sensors a good option for replacing motions?
 
Thanks again for your input!

 
If someone has no motions, and only glass break and window/door contacts, you can literally cut a hole in the front door and throw a party.

 

[drvnbysound]

If I install a PIR in a corner looking down each wall the coverage between the 90 degree sweep of the detector is inconsequential in most installations. A burglar is not going to plop into the middle of the coverage pattern and the goal of a PIR is redundancy and to deny movement from an unprotected area (generally outside) to inside. A PIR works by seeing movement across multiple segments of it's view, not to mention the design of the detector comes into play (fresnel lens, mirror optics, etc.) A smaller dog that does not move through multiple segments of the pattern (such as a pet on the rear of a couch) may not set it off if the angle is appropriate to be in the same segment, but may set it off if the movement is across multiple segments in the pattern.

 
As with many things, I'd say that depends. I've many split floor plans where the PIR is in the corner looking down the walls (as you suggest), but the center area of a PIR is looking toward a hallway. It's feasible that someone could break into a room that was at the end of the hall and not be detected until they reached the living area where the PIR was placed. Obviously, this really depends on the entire setup, but it's not an extreme case.
 
I'd want more information (e.g. floor plan) before I made any recommendations on what sensors to use and where they should be placed.

 

[jmed999]

Back to the original question though - door/window detectors should really always be used - they're your first line of defense, and ideally you'd like to trigger the alarm BEFORE someone makes it into your house.  The alarm is of little value once they're inside depending on what they're there to do.  Sure they wouldn't be able to camp out and spend the weekend emptying out your house (happened to a friend of mine) but if they're already inside, then once the alarm trips they still grab the laptop off the counter and run; or worse, cause bodily harm.  It's far better to alert them to the alarm and the police to the attempt before they make it into the house.
 
Motions and interior detection help verify a break-in or catch someone who managed to evade your door/window sensors - which there are a few ways to do.
 
If it were me, I'd add the glass-breaks and window sensors and then follow DEL's tips on masking the PIR.  Most people don't tune their PIRs correctly - they just install them and leave them - but there's a lot more you can do with them.

Thanks for going back to the original question and not getting off track!
 
I think I will do exactly that....install glass breaks and window sensors and adjust the motions.
 
Most likely the intruder will not know about the alarm until they are in since the most likely scenario would be to kick in my front or back door.

 

[Del91574]

As with many things, I'd say that depends. I've many split floor plans where the PIR is in the corner looking down the walls (as you suggest), but the center area of a PIR is looking toward a hallway. It's feasible that someone could break into a room that was at the end of the hall and not be detected until they reached the living area where the PIR was placed. Obviously, this really depends on the entire setup, but it's not an extreme case.
 
I'd want more information (e.g. floor plan) before I made any recommendations on what sensors to use and where they should be placed.

PE beams work wonders where PIR's can't really be used effectively.

 

[drvnbysound]

PE beams work wonders where PIR's can't really be used effectively.

 
I don't have any issues with my PIRs
 
I agree about PE beams, but I'll be the first to admit that I'm not crazy about placing them all over a home from a pure aesthetics stand point. However, I'd certainly use them as necessary.

 

[Del91574]

PE beams can be installed far more discreetly than PIR's. Plenty of recessed units and those that install behind electrical plates. Been a while since I had to look, but there were also many that had a dummy electrical plate/outlet on them so even more so.
 
Hardest part of PE's for most people is not obscuring them with furniture or other items...not to mention you really need to have double ended units and not reflective.