Question on sensors for vinyl windows

[Del91574]

Without affecting the warranty, you don't drill or install them "into" the window.

 

[Neurorad]

DEL, I've done a lot of reading, online, about the method of adding the contact to the new window.  Well, more searching, than reading.
 
I have wired flush mount/recessed contacts currently.  The window is removed, and the new window installed.  The window installation salesmen say the window installer leaves the cable hanging, for the alarm installer to come in and add the contact.  How is the contact added?  Remove the interior lower window trim?  Or just say, 'sorry, we can only install wireless surface mount, at this point'?

 

[mikefamig]

DEL, I've done a lot of reading, online, about the method of adding the contact to the new window.  Well, more searching, than reading.
 
I have wired flush mount/recessed contacts currently.  The window is removed, and the new window installed.  The window installation salesmen say the window installer leaves the cable hanging, for the alarm installer to come in and add the contact.  How is the contact added?  Remove the interior lower window trim?  Or just say, 'sorry, we can only install wireless surface mount, at this point'?

 
I'm no authority on the subject but doesn't each manufacturer have different warranty conditions? A quick call could answer your question and it's good to get that kind of info from the horse's mouth. I have seen that some windows come pre-drilled for alarm sensors. Am I correct that that the wires are installed?
 
Mike.

 

[Neurorad]

Yep, wires and contacts are installed.  Not as concerned about warranty as I am about visible contacts and cable.
 
I haven't heard of pre-drilled windows, sounds interesting.
 
The only integrated contact I could find was from Andersen - VeriLock - a Honeywell wireless contact.  Honeywell and wireless are both exclusion criteria.

 

[mikefamig]

Yep, wires and contacts are installed.  Not as concerned about warranty as I am about visible contacts and cable.
 
I haven't heard of pre-drilled windows, sounds interesting.

I wouldn't swear to it but I think that I've read of it.
 

The only integrated contact I could find was from Andersen - VeriLock - a Honeywell wireless contact.  Honeywell and wireless are both exclusion criteria.

If the wires and sensors are installed then I misunderstood the question. Are you asking about installing the magnet in the sash?
 
Mike.

 

[Del91574]

DEL, I've done a lot of reading, online, about the method of adding the contact to the new window.  Well, more searching, than reading.
 
I have wired flush mount/recessed contacts currently.  The window is removed, and the new window installed.  The window installation salesmen say the window installer leaves the cable hanging, for the alarm installer to come in and add the contact.  How is the contact added?  Remove the interior lower window trim?  Or just say, 'sorry, we can only install wireless surface mount, at this point'?

Lip service by the window guys 99% of the time "it's simple for the alarm guy".....fact is it's not and generally, that's when we're forced to either butcher a window to get contacts in or tell the HO to buy RF.
 
Vinyl windows are laid over the existing jamb and then an extension is usually on the header to make up the gap or the units are custom sized to the opening and then held in with screws/caulk or a small piece of trim. They hardly ever touch the interior trim, so that is out unless you pull the apron yourself.
 
If the installers do it, you've got to hope for the best and hope the window has enough space on the sill underneath to not have pinched wires OR that the holes are close to the right location on the sash. Usually putting a contact in vinyl is more of an art form than most window guys/carpenters put the effort into, or they drill a tiny hole and let the alarm guy deal with it.
 
The best case is the apron is pulled off and the slack fished out of the wall and then the sill in the new window drilled, fished and old wire pulled into the new hole.

 

[Neurorad]

I wouldn't swear to it but I think that I've read of it.
 
If the wires and sensors are installed then I misunderstood the question. Are you asking about installing the magnet in the sash?
 
Mike.

I'm asking about the method of installing new contacts into replacement windows.

 

[mikefamig]

I'm asking about the method of installing new contacts into replacement windows.

I don't understand. Didn't you say that the wires and contacts were already installed? Did you only replace the sash or the entire  pre-hung window frame and all? If that is the case then you must have removed the old sensors, no?
 
I installed sensors in new vinyl windows not long ao and had a hard time doing a neat job until I got the hang of it. I drilled 3/8" holes in the sill to accept the sensor. For the magnet I found that there was a gap between the sash and the sill when the window was closed and that I could fit a 1/8" thick magnet attached to the surface of the sash which was less damaging to the window than drilling a 3/8" hole for a conventional magnet.
 
The hard part was making a nice round neat hole in the vinyl sill that the sensor would snap into tightly and neatly. I ended up drilling the hole undersized through the vinyl window sill and wood frame behind it with a power drill and then opening the hole in the thin wall vinyl up to 3/8" by twisting a drill bit by hand. If you push a 3/8" drill into the vinyl with a power drill it is very easy to end up with an oversize and oblong hole.
 
There were some who argued that you should never drill a vinyl window and they made a good point but I decided that I was OK with it.
 
Mike.

 

[Neurorad]

Lip service by the window guys 99% of the time "it's simple for the alarm guy".....fact is it's not and generally, that's when we're forced to either butcher a window to get contacts in or tell the HO to buy RF.
 
Vinyl windows are laid over the existing jamb and then an extension is usually on the header to make up the gap or the units are custom sized to the opening and then held in with screws/caulk or a small piece of trim. They hardly ever touch the interior trim, so that is out unless you pull the apron yourself.
 
If the installers do it, you've got to hope for the best and hope the window has enough space on the sill underneath to not have pinched wires OR that the holes are close to the right location on the sash. Usually putting a contact in vinyl is more of an art form than most window guys/carpenters put the effort into, or they drill a tiny hole and let the alarm guy deal with it.
 
The best case is the apron is pulled off and the slack fished out of the wall and then the sill in the new window drilled, fished and old wire pulled into the new hole.

Thank you, DEL.  That's super helpful.
 
Removing the apron - interior trim below stool - is all the interior damage that is usually needed to add the new contact?  The window installer just pushes the wire down into the hole before installing the window?
 
I guess I should pull an apron, and cut a little drywall behind the apron, to see how it looks.  If there are 3 studs below each window (just a hunch), it probably won't be this simple.
 
I will invite the alarm installer out to the house beforehand, to discuss personally, asking him how he wants the windows installed.

 

[Neurorad]

I don't understand. Didn't you say that the wires and contacts were already installed? Did you only replace the sash or the entire  pre-hung window frame and all? If that is the case then you must have removed the old sensors, no?
 
I installed sensors in new vinyl windows not long ao and had a hard time doing a neat job until I got the hang of it. I drilled 3/8" holes in the sill to accept the sensor. For the magnet I found that there was a gap between the sash and the sill when the window was closed and that I could fit a 1/8" thick magnet attached to the surface of the sash which was less damaging to the window than drilling a 3/8" hole for a conventional magnet.
 
The hard part was making a nice round neat hole in the vinyl sill that the sensor would snap into tightly and neatly. I ended up drilling the hole undersized through the vinyl window sill and wood frame behind it with a power drill and then opening the hole in the thin wall vinyl up to 3/8" by twisting a drill bit by hand. If you push a 3/8" drill into the vinyl with a power drill it is very easy to end up with an oversize and oblong hole.
 
There were some who argued that you should never drill a vinyl window and they made a good point but I decided that I was OK with it.
 
Mike.

I haven't done a thing yet; old windows still in place, with wired contacts.  Trying to figure out how the new window is installed, and the new contact added.  It could be as 'easy' as pulling the apron, but we'll see.

 

[mikefamig]

I haven't done a thing yet; old windows still in place, with wired contacts.  Trying to figure out how the new window is installed, and the new contact added.  It could be as 'easy' as pulling the apron, but we'll see.

 
I get it now, I was confused......but that's nothing new:\

 

[nicholass817]

What make and model window are you having installed?  I saw Andersen 3000 series in the initial post but can't find it on the Andersen website....other than patio doors.  
 
A quick look at the technical detail of the window could help you decide where/how to install the sensors.  

 

[Del91574]

I haven't done a thing yet; old windows still in place, with wired ,contacts.  Trying to figure out how the new window is installed, and the new contact added.  It could be as 'easy' as pulling the apron, but we'll see.

Unless you're going to do it all in one clip and ready over a week or a few days, put the windows OOS for a little bit of time and pull the contact out of the sill. If you were prewired, it's now time to see how much slack you can get out and how good of a rough was done. If retrofit, now it's time to see how good the installer was at leaving service loops.
 
Pulling the apron is the cleanest method assuming you can get to the wire, which for a good retrofit guy, is a simple affair. Pulling the existing wire out of the wall and through the apron location is up to how much slack you have.
 
If you want to go and be "tight" the idea is to get a undersized drill. I can't recall if it's a number or letter drill, but not a fractional size. Balancing act between sizing properly and possibly crushing the contact over time. The winged contacts tend to have a lot more play in the bored hole size, but you still don't want to overdrill the 3/8" hole and they're unfortunately, only available in pigtailed versions.

 

[michealbroza]

You can use this model, they are easy to instal 

 

[Neurorad]

Ah, thanks, DEL. Pull the contacts, and apron, before the new Windows are installed, to see how much slack I have.

Thanks for the tip on the sizing. I'll probably sub out the new contacts install, to a reliable local company who has done some work for me in the past.

Michael - I generally have been sticking with GRI products for contacts and sensors, when I can. Quality products, good company.

Edit - Michael, I figured out those are surface mount contacts, pictured. I'll try to use flush mount.