Reality check for a newbie...

[RagnarD]

Hello gents! Question for you... am I crazy? :angry:

I'm a new (and first time) homeowner looking to self-install a security and home automation system. I've been doing a fair amount of homework but am a little overwhelmed by all the details and differences between my two main contenders, the Elk M1 Gold and the HAI Omni IIe. I'm reasonably handy around the house, have some electronics and programming background, but am also a pretty busy guy and looking to save $. Our house is a single story slab construction with pretty good attic access to everything, 3 bed 2 bath, about 2200 sq feet. The house has some left over wiring in the attic from an old security system, but no sensors left on the doors or windows, just the wiring running to the front closet.

Here's the primary things I'm looking to do...

Basic home security, starting with internal motion detectors, then door & window switches, then external motion detectors for lighting control.
External lighting control to begin with, then some internal lighting too, mostly for security.
Thermostat control - it's a single panel, single zone system, shouldn't be hard.
And I'd like to set up remote control of all of these through our iPhones. Eventually I'd like to have remote key-fobs as well for arming/disarming as you walk up to the house, but we could live with just the iPhone controls to begin with.

Later I'd like to be able to add more internal and external lighting control, but I'm not in a rush due to $$ concerns.

So here's my three main questions...

1. Is this reasonable? Like I said, I'm a fairly handy and smart guy, but I've never worked with security or automation stuff before.

2. I've tried really hard to get up to date comparisons between Elk and HAI, but I'm pretty overwhelmed. Given my intent, any thoughts? Does one have more powerful programming ability or interface? Do they both have decent iPhone apps? I haven't seen anything on Elk's, but I've heard there is something.

3. Am I going to need to hire a pro to help with this? I had one HAI installer come out and give me a quote, but it was WAY more than I can afford at the moment, over $5k. I decided to do it myself and asked if he'd be willing to consult as needed, and he gave a gruff, "my hourly is $90 per hour" and nothing else.

I'm sure I'm going to have more questions as this goes on, but I'll star with the sanity check. Thanks in advance for any and all help, this forum seems to be the end-all-be-all of home security and automation, I'm glad I found it. THANKS!!

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

Give the How to install a home security system how-to a look and see if you think that makes sense first.

 

[ano]

You can certainly do it yourself, nothing is very complicated, but it does take LOTS of time. The reason a professional charges that amount is due to the time, not the cost of equipment. If you have wiring in place, that is half the battle, but wireless is an option for both. Between ELK and HAI, its been discussed 1000 times before, so I'm not going to repeat it here, but I do recommend that you look at all the accessories that both ELK and HAI offer. You likely won't be installing them at the start, but several years down the road it will be too late to change, so look at the possibilities from the start, even if you don't want most of them now. This will also give you an idea how the two systems differ.

 

[Jrock]

Welcome to CT! This is definitely the best online community I have found for help and advise on home automation and security.

1. Installation is fairly simple. As ano said it will definitely take time, but you don't have to do it all at once. You can get your basic security stuff done first then add on as you have time. I wired my house for my HAI system 2 years before I actually bought it and installed it! I have no previous experience with automation (besides x-10) or security. Installation however, was much easier than I thought it was going to be. I did work for a cable company years ago where I did gain valuable experience fishing wires through walls. Anyway, like BSR said read the how-to and make sure you understand it. You should also check out a copy of the install manual for the systems you are considering. And of course there are many very helpful members on CT if you have questions or run into any problems during the install.

2. Again, as ano said, this topic has been covered 1000 times! Everyone has their opinion of which system is better. Both systems seem to have basically the same capabilities so in the end I think it really comes down to which system you like better. I have never used an ELK system so I have no direct knowledge, only what I have read. It seems that ELK was more geared towards the DIYer with more publicly available documentation and more online help available. HAI is catching up there though. There are members here who work for HAI and frequent the forums (checkout the HAI forum) and are always quick to answer any questions. I think HAI is a more complete system out of the box. From what I have read there are more add ons which need to be purchased for an ELK system to give it the same capabilities. It really is up to you though. Maybe you like the HAI consoles better, maybe you like that you can get an ELK system for cheaper because components need to be added on. I am very happy with my HAI OIIe, but I dont think you can go wrong with either one.

3. As long as you have wiring knowledge and understand what you read in the how-to and install manuals you should be alright. You did mention basic lighting control though, so if you are not comfortable working with electricity you should definitely hire an electrician.

There are many members here with much more knowledge on both HAI and ELK than I have so please feel free to correct me if anything I stated is incorrect.

 

[pete_c]

Welcome to the forum RagnarD.

You'll find much information here.

As stated it'll be the wiring that takes the longest time. Simple as stated; take your time.

In one home I had a security company pre-wire for the alarm panel. In another home I did the wiring a bit at a time.

The wiring is just about the same for both panels. The pre-wire in one home was generic for any alarm system and it was about 10 years after I built that I installed the panel.

In the midwest I installed the panel first and wiring up one zone at a time. I'm still adding to my panel in the MW.

 

[RagnarD]

Alright gents, it's been tough but I think I've decided on the Elk, by the narrowest of margins. The prices, with items I want, come out almost identical, so it was really only a few minor things that made the difference. 1) Elk's ethernet adapter has a java-based web-app that should allow us to use our regular Mac's as basic keypads. I'll still have to use an emulator to run ElkRP, but for everyday security stuff, I think I can just pull up the webpage of the XEP and see whats going on. 2) The Elk seems to have better native voice support... not requiring additional modules. 3) I like the fact that the eKeypad app has a 'favorites' page right up front so you don't have to drill down through menus for your most common items. 4) I like the stand-alone function keys on the Elk KP2 keypad... that will probably become my garage door opener eventually. See? I told you it came down to the wire.

Now that I've finally decided, I'm putting together my order list. Because of funds, it'll be a gradual build up. To begin with, I'm looking at basic security (doors, windows, motion), and ethernet connection for iPhone control.

1) Elk M1GSYS4S - The basic package, including 14" enclosure, batt & xformer, the low profile keypad, and speaker.
2) Elk M1XEP - The ethernet connection
3) 3 Motion Detectors - brand/model suggestions? Must be pet-immune.
4) Door & window contacts. Window contacts will have to be surface mount, old style frames won't allow for internal mount and we may change windows in a couple years anyway.

The next two main items I'll be adding are lighting control for 3 exterior lights and thermostat control... which brings me to the next questions...

Q1) Is UPB the best way to go for basic lighting control? Everything I've read says it's quicker and more reliable than any of the older systems.
Q2) Am I going to need some type of databus or serial expander in order to connect the XEP, the UPB PIM, and the thermostat? If it matters, I'm planning on using the HAI RC1000.

Thanks as always for all the help! I'm starting to get excited, although not about the wiring.

 

[Steve]

Congrats on your decision! Just don't expect too much from the XEP's Java webapp, its very basic and sometimes troublesome. On the M1 you will need an M1XSP serial expander for every additional subsystem. So you will need 2 of them, 1 for UPB and 1 for T-Stat. The OmniPro has 5 serial ports built in so no additional components needed. I hope that didn't make you start thinking again! They are both great products.

 

[etc6849]

No, but it's making me re-think things

How open is the Omnipro II? Does it have a robost rs232 protocol for control via a dedicated home automation server?

If I could do something similar to what 123 has done with the Elk M1G, I'd consider the Omnipro as I'm dissappointed at how much my Elk system is adding up to. Anyways, 123 created a module for Premise (free PC HA program) that allows control over outputs, input status, keypad messages, voice messages (via Elk's library)...

If an RS232 ascii protocol is available for the Omnipro II, I have to consider it too. I pretty much jumped towards the M1 after seeing 123's work, but I haven't bought anything yet..

http://www.cocoontech.com/forums/index.php...amp;showfile=62

 

[tmbrown97]

I love my Elk, but I must point out that the Java app that's embedded in the M1XEP has never worked on my mac - with any browser. I do use the eKeypad app religiously. Also, consider the same system you listed, but the one that includes the KP2 keypad. And furthermore, the KP2's have optional flush-mount back-boxes, and the SP12 speaker that is designed to mount behind the keypad - it's very slick when put together.

You never need a data bus hub - but it makes life a whole lot easier when wiring.

UPB has been great for me - there's a pretty good mixed bag here of experiences.

There's another currently active thread from today I believe also asking about pet-immune PIR's; Bosch Blue Line is popular; I liked my Rokonet ones... Go for at least Dual Technology (Microwave and IR) - or even possibly quad-tech... this will reduce false alarms but provide excellent reliability. Just remember, even the best pet-immune detectors will pick up a 12lb cat that jumps on something 5-6ft high - and place your sensors accordingly.

 

[Steve]

I really did not want to cause you to rethink, but I just didn't want to see you choose something for a feature that may not work for you, or perform as expected.

The OmniPro does have a serial protocol that you can use to build a driver like 123's. I don't know about Premise, but most of the commercial products like Homeseer, CQC, Mainlobby, Elve, etc already have OmniPro drivers, just like they have Elks. But if you want to use Premise and there is no driver already then understand it will be a bit of work to write one and that would certainly be an incentive to choose Elk.

Also, just to touch on your other points...

2. Yes, you need the two way voice board for HAI to get voice. I agree its kinda dumb but I think that's how they bridge to an amp even though the actual voices/words are on the main panel. The bright side is that its a full featured board with paging output and line level output, plus its a two way audio kit for central station. So in the end it gives you a little more flexibility than the Elk but I have not had much luck with the built in amp, so expect to use an external amp.

3. eKeypad is an awesome app for the M1, but there are also nice apps for the OmniPro, like Haiku and HAI's own Snaplink.

4. Elk definitely wins here. I really hate the Omni console and really liked my KP2. I mean the Omni console is functional, and it does have 'shortcuts', albeit not a single programmable function key. But, you could spend a little more and use Omni touch screens which are nice, or just have one console somewhere (even in the panel) and use iPads or iPod Touches with your own interface. There are alot of different wall mounts for these now and they make great consoles.

And forget about that 14" can - if you are going to add anything to that system you will need more room. Getting a 14" can with a nice automation controller is like getting a 20GB drive with a nice new pc.

 

[etc6849]

There maybe a driver somewhere for Premise already, I haven't looked. However, the neat thing is that you can re-use much of 123's work to make an OmniPro II module, but with modifications to how the RS232 protocol is processed. One huge benefit to Premise is that the predefined classes allow one to easily re-use work from a different module to make a new one.

 

[RagnarD]

Well crap. :huh:

Now you gents really do have me thinking twice. The java-app was a big piece of the decision, and it sounds like I can't count on that functioning on our Macs running Firefox. Meanwhile I checked out Haiku and it seems to me to be a much nicer looking and more customizable iPhone app than HAI's in house option, so I'm happy with that. And I would seriously have to buy a whole XSP serial expander for EVERY additional connection??? On the HAI, the thermostat connects right to the board, no serial port required.

So that basically leaves me with the better keypad and built-in voice support being the only winners for the Elk, while the extra cost of the serial expanders actually makes it more $$ and it's starting to sound like a lot more work to integrate the whole thing. Alright, HAI questions while I'm at it...

1. What's the difference between the "End User" version of PC Access and the "Installer" version? I'm pretty computer/programming savvy... is there anything I really need to pay the extra $150 for installer?

2. Are there any other keypads that are compatible with the HAI? Or is each company's keypad proprietary? I'm not totally against the iPod idea, but it will likely be overkill for our small system. I guess I'll just need to carry my phone around the house all the time.

 

[tmbrown97]

A big part of my decision to go with Elk did have to do with me liking the keypads a whole lot more.

Also, I believe Steve did mention in the past some differences in flexibility of zone configurations when wiring in the zones - maybe he could elaborate - but I remember the gist being that Elk was more flexible.

How many XSP's do you think you'd need? I had 2 running... 1 for UPB, 1 for Thermostats (By the way, you generally only need 1 XSP even if you're running up to 4 thermostats - they can share an XSP). The XEP connects directly to the databus.

And Either way, don't worry about the wiring... it's very easy to crimp an RJ45 on one end of a wire, and put 4 wires into screw terminals.

You did mention you want to start small and grow - which is where the Elk initially won for me; I have added pieces when I had the time/money but started with a solid base.

Lastly - for hardwired keypads, they're proprietary. To get away from them, you have to go to some sort of control software and a touchscreen. Speaking of which, eKeypad is awesome - I've had it since the week it came out, and Jayson keeps surprising me with additional improvements. I got in the habit of not arming the house on my way out, but instead from the car via iPhone as I was driving up the street.

I'm not necessarily pushing for the Elk - just trying to help paint a good picture for comparison.

 

[Steve]

1. What's the difference between the "End User" version of PC Access and the "Installer" version? I'm pretty computer/programming savvy... is there anything I really need to pay the extra $150 for installer?

2. Are there any other keypads that are compatible with the HAI? Or is each company's keypad proprietary? I'm not totally against the iPod idea, but it will likely be overkill for our small system. I guess I'll just need to carry my phone around the house all the time.

It's always a tough choice because they are both very good options.

1. If you intend to do all the programming yourself you will need the Dealer version. It's the only way to fully configure the panel. You can see all the gory details here.

2. HAI has the one basic console and then various touchscreens like the 5.7(e). For basic consoles I do like the Elk options better for things like the function key, readiness indicator, etc. But the HAI touchscreens are nicer than Elk's imho. Of course 3rd party interfaces for phones/pods/pads/droids, etc are there for both. While it may weigh in on the decision I would not think the systems basic console would be a large factor. It's preference but they are certainly all functional.

Also, I believe Steve did mention in the past some differences in flexibility of zone configurations when wiring in the zones - maybe he could elaborate - but I remember the gist being that Elk was more flexible.

The Elk does have more granular options for zone configuration but after learning some things about HAI's approach I'd probably have to call this a wash. I don't think in a typical install you'd have an issue with either. In some respects HAI's may approach may even be easier as you don't even need to really think about certain options.

HAI does have ethernet built in and imho its easier to configure than the XEP. The HAI does not however support email except thru the touchscreens so that may be an issue. But I do all email via CQC anyway and I find it more robust. So that can go either way.

As for serial connectivity, well Elk has the main serial port and then the XSP as an additional port for each subsystem. The OPII has 5 serial ports on board. One small difference is the XSP has different firmwares depending on what subsystem you want. This can be nice because you can just flash an XSP for updated code rather than the whole panel. But there are the downsides too - maintaining the right code/rev and separate wiring, although it does give you the ability to put an XSP anywhere you want. But there are ways to work around any situation so at the end of the day the bottom line is they are both highly functional. Cost will add up and can be something to consider if you will require adding 4 additional XSP's - which isn't hard - thermostats, 2 lighting technologies, Rain8 or other type of controller, etc.

Need a coin? :huh:

 

[RagnarD]

Allllll righty then....

So if I go with Elk, I've got the additional expense of the XSP modules... although I did see they now have a UPB PIM out that will wire directly to the databus... it has the serial adapter build int.

And if I go with the Elk, I've got the additional expense of the Installer version of PC Access.

Which means I'm back to square one. Jeez.

Alright, another potential tie breaker... Is there any substantial difference in the programming capabilities of each? Is one more robust than the other?

While I'm at it: one of my intents is to use a 'task' or 'button' as an alarm system for my wife and I. I would have two, one preset for each of our work wake up times. Before we go to bed, we would turn the 'alarm' on, which I presume would be a flag of some sort. Then in the morning I'd have my bedside lamp come up slowly, followed by a time annunciation of some sort, and then turn on the bathroom lights and the heater. Any thoughts on implementing this with UPB? Any advantages of one system over the other?