Size of INSTEON networks?

[The Pod]

Once you have these things sending RF throughout the house, then what? Nothing's listening to it.

Not true, each SignaLinc is listening to each other and repeating signals it hears via both powerline and RF. Every INSTEON device is capable of repeating the signal, some only via powerline, some only RF (like battery operated motion sensors, not avaiable yet) or on both powerline & RF. The whole concept is to get the signal to its destination without failure. You had quoted that your ACT coupler does the same thing as the SignaLinc bridging the phases, yes it is a bridge, but can you do this.... Talk to your neighbors, plug a SignaLinc in each of their homes (making sure one can see the next by RF and so on, outside wall outlets work best for this test since the RF signals travel farther across open air.) Then put a switch in your house, and a lamp module 5 houses down..... guess what you won't have any problems controlling the lamp from your house. This is similar to the way Z-Wave works by broadcasting the signal across the RF (you can do the same above test with Z-Wave using Z-Wave modules). INSTEON is using both forms (powerline and RF) to transfer the signal to its destination module and back again to the controller to confirm that it has been received and executed. Unlike X-10, both Z-Wave and INSTEON become more reliable with each module you add. X-10 is just the opposite, add more modules (especially 2-ways) and your signal becomes weaker because they absorb some of the signal. Yes there are now some X-10 modules from SmartHome that include boosterlincs built into them, but its not every module available.

The Pod

 

[markthomas]

Once you have these things sending RF throughout the house, then what? Nothing's listening to it.

Not true, each SignaLinc is listening to each other and repeating signals it hears via both powerline and RF.

That's exactly what I have been saying! The Signalincs are sending RF. But other than those, NO MODULES ARE RECEIVING IT!

Practically speaking, there's nothing you can do in Insteon that you can't do in X-10. The insteon RF is making the coupling/repeating more robust, but it is adding no new functionality to its modules.

You had quoted that your ACT coupler does the same thing as the SignaLinc bridging the phases, yes it is a bridge, but can you do this.... [control your neighbors' lights]

A very dubious advantage. I guarantee you this would not work for me (my neighborhood is on one-acre lots). And again, it's just a coupling/repeating issue.
Is that the only advantage to Insteon RF that you can think of?

INSTEON is using both forms (powerline and RF) to transfer the signal to its destination module and back again to the controller to confirm that it has been received and executed.

The very same misconception I debunked earlier in this thread! Don't feel bad, this is a VERY common misconception. The destination module is receiving POWERLINE ONLY. The RF is ONLY to help the coupling/repeating of the powerline signal.

Unlike X-10, both Z-Wave and INSTEON become more reliable with each module you add.

It could (perhaps more accurately) be said like this: Unlike Z-Wave (which is an RF mesh network), both Smarthome's X10 modules with Boosterlinc and Insteon modules boost and repeat a powerline signal.

 

[smee]

INSTEON is using both forms (powerline and RF) to transfer the signal to its destination module and back again to the controller to confirm that it has been received and executed.

The very same misconception I debunked earlier in this thread! Don't feel bad, this is a VERY common misconception. The destination module is receiving POWERLINE ONLY. The RF is ONLY to help the coupling/repeating of the powerline signal.

I think you are talking about two different things.

The first:
source -> powerline -> RF -> powerline -> destination
(with any number of powerline and RF links in the middle)

The second
source -> powerline -> destination
source -> RF -> destination

The first is serial, the second parallel. I think it has been established that the modules do not receive RF so there is no parallel operation.

 

[The Pod]

Unlike X-10, both Z-Wave and INSTEON become more reliable with each module you add.

It could (perhaps more accurately) be said like this: Unlike Z-Wave (which is an RF mesh network), both Smarthome's X10 modules with Boosterlinc and Insteon modules boost and repeat a powerline signal.

With one exception to your comment.

Practically speaking, there's nothing you can do in Insteon that you can't do in X-10. The insteon RF is making the coupling/repeating more robust, but it is adding no new functionality to its modules.

I have an area of the house that is connected with a natural gas generator. Because this is on a seperate service panel and runs through the controller for switching the generator on when power is cut, I have been unable to get X-10 to function on this. Tried adding boosterlincs in front and behind the controller, tried adding a coupler at the service panel, and nothing. I can not get the signals to pass through it (not even a tiny signal on the X-10 test meter). The controlling transformer just absorbs everything no matter how strong of a signal I send into it.

I can place Z-Wave modules in this trouble area and can communicate with them without issues. Placing one INSTEON SignaLinc on one side of the controller and the other in the trouble area I'm trying to control. I am able to control those lights with INSTEON.

And here is another test for you, purchase two gas generators, start them both up and place a switch on one unit and a module on the other. I can control the module with both Z-Wave and INSTEON setups. Don't think I can do it with X-10. Can you?

The Pod

 

[markthomas]

Pod,

You seem to have some serious coupling issues. Certainly Insteon is good in your situation. There's a chance that an ACT CR-230 would work to couple X-10 to your sub-panel; I don't know.

And here is another test for you, purchase two gas generators, start them both up and place a switch on one unit and a module on the other. I can control the module with both Z-Wave and INSTEON setups. Don't think I can do it with X-10. Can you?

If you do it exactly the way you describe, Insteon wouldn't work either.

- Mark.

 

[The Pod]

You seem to have some serious coupling issues. Certainly Insteon is good in your situation. There's a chance that an ACT CR-230 would work to couple X-10 to your sub-panel; I don't know.

Nope, that's the coupler I tried and use, I feel its one of the best available and works great at the main panel. It covers all of the house except anything that resides on the other side of the backup generator.

I didn't go into depth of all the necessary equipment required like having SignaLincs on each generator or what would need to be linked to what, but you could make the INSTEON switch control the INSTEON module in that bizzare test setup.

The one thing I will say for X-10 is that I can plug a module in, right out of the box and control it with a default A1 controller. Z-Wave and INSTEON require some sort of linking or setup before they will communicate. However, the speed that Z-Wave and INSTEON communicate is much faster than X-10 is, and I can not see any delays from pressing a switch to when the light actually turns on. X-10 there is a noticable delay. We HA'ers are use to it, but common folk notice things like this.

The Pod

 

[AutomatedOutlet]

I have an area of the house that is connected with a natural gas generator. Because this is on a seperate service panel and runs through the controller for switching the generator on when power is cut, I have been unable to get X-10 to function on this.

Pod, how far away was this?

The reason I'm asking is because I had a similar situation.

In my pool house, that is feed from a totally separate feed with it's own meter, I have a Lightolier firewall box installed. There is NO WAY I was going to be able to get X10 signals to it from the house. The original plan was to tie multiple firewalls together, etc.

Then, I thought, hmm, maybe I could use the RF coupling to bridge the 2 locations. The distance from the nearest part of my house to the pool house was only about 40-45 feet. I couldn't get the signal into the building so I gave up on that idea.

Next I'm going to try to power a UPB signal though the firewall but I suspect it won't work either.

 

[The Pod]

Pod, how far away was this?

The reason I'm asking is because I had a similar situation.

In my pool house, that is feed from a totally separate feed with it's own meter, I have a Lightolier firewall box installed. There is NO WAY I was going to be able to get X10 signals to it from the house. The original plan was to tie multiple firewalls together, etc.

Then, I thought, hmm, maybe I could use the RF coupling to bridge the 2 locations. The distance from the nearest part of my house to the pool house was only about 40-45 feet. I couldn't get the signal into the building so I gave up on that idea.

Next I'm going to try to power a UPB signal though the firewall but I suspect it won't work either.

Not far at all, but it was such a pain since the signal kept getting absorbed at the transformer.

Try linking the two SignaLincs first then just move one out to the pool house and see if that works. I think SmartHome's setup instruction is just so that you first have a reliable phase coupler solution. I have 6 SignaLincs in installed in my house now and can reach any destination from any location with INSTEON now.

The Pod

 

[kwilcox]

Hmmm... interesting stuff. I just finished the Insteon white paper and I now understand the protocol. Very clever of SmartHome to use a high frequency carrier on the powerline to transmit 24 bits per zero crossing via phase inversion! This would make Insteon a very fast powerline protocol given that the average message size is 80 bits In fact, it should be about 4 times faster than UPB making any delay completely unnoticable. I'm not sure how noise suppressing connected devices would handle the carrier though but I'm guessing that they'll suppress it just as they do X10. Thus the wireless component which simply acts as a wireless repeater for insteon signals. Wireless Insteon devices are simply boosterlincs having the advantage of receiving signals wirelessly unstead of X10 boosterlincs which must see a powerline component to relay and amplify. As such, placement would be less of an issue.