Smoke Detectors
- Thread starter Mike
- Start date
upstatemike
Senior Member
Yes that or this or this . You need one per zone and it does add cost. That is one of the reasons I have been wishing Elk would consider making an expansion board that supports 2-wire smokes. Even if they had to charge more for the extra electronics required it would likely still be cheaper than the 16 end-of-line relays you would have to buy to use 4-wire smokes with the existing expander board.
Steve
Senior Member
Ok, I just spoke to System Sensor Tech support and learned some interesting stuff. First, the i3 series does have a 'remote maintenance signal' which is similar to the CleanMe, but different (no standards - they are proprietary). Supposedly the panel must support i3 in addition to CleanMe. Their detectors do however have built in diags (both 2 AND 4 wire) where the LED blinks green normal, blinks RED for maintenance and is solid red in alarm.
The 4 wires he also stated need the EOL relay which was discussed here, but he said to be careful because each relay pulls 20ma so if you have a bunch of them on separate zones it could add up quick and may need to supplement power at the panel.
But the most interesting thing he told me was that the 2 wires were not generic (forgetting even the maintenance signaling). In other words, the specific detector needs to be UL listed by the panel in order to be 'legal' and supported. Of course it most likely would work but he said shouldn't install any 2 wire smokes on panels that are not listed for it and he had no info on ELK. Any 4 wire smoke is legal as it is considered a 'dry contact'. If the M1 does not support the maintenance signal, you can use the 2W-MOD2 module to interpret it and run it to the panel, but it still must be listed.
I have a call in to ELK to see if 1. The i3 series is listed (it was not in their list when I called and she (Amy) is checking with engineering and 2. If the M1 supports or will support the i3 remote maintenance signal.
And last, he informed me the 'best' system which supposedly where all things are headed is addressable.
If Spanky is here, what are your thoughts on adding addressable smokes or directly supporting the i3 series which seems to be very popular.
EDIT: Sure enough, the i3 2 wires are not supported according to label:
The 4 wires he also stated need the EOL relay which was discussed here, but he said to be careful because each relay pulls 20ma so if you have a bunch of them on separate zones it could add up quick and may need to supplement power at the panel.
But the most interesting thing he told me was that the 2 wires were not generic (forgetting even the maintenance signaling). In other words, the specific detector needs to be UL listed by the panel in order to be 'legal' and supported. Of course it most likely would work but he said shouldn't install any 2 wire smokes on panels that are not listed for it and he had no info on ELK. Any 4 wire smoke is legal as it is considered a 'dry contact'. If the M1 does not support the maintenance signal, you can use the 2W-MOD2 module to interpret it and run it to the panel, but it still must be listed.
I have a call in to ELK to see if 1. The i3 series is listed (it was not in their list when I called and she (Amy) is checking with engineering and 2. If the M1 supports or will support the i3 remote maintenance signal.
And last, he informed me the 'best' system which supposedly where all things are headed is addressable.
If Spanky is here, what are your thoughts on adding addressable smokes or directly supporting the i3 series which seems to be very popular.
EDIT: Sure enough, the i3 2 wires are not supported according to label:
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upstatemike
Senior Member
Steve-
Good job on the research! I knew that panel manufacturers will only support 2-wire smokes that they officially list as being compatible but I didn't know it affected the UL certification of the installation if you used something not on the list.
As you point out, most 2-wire smokes will work with most 2-wire panels as long as you pay attentention to voltage and current draw. (You can't use a 24-28 volt smoke on a 12 volt panel. Most devices these days are 10-24 volt so it rarely comes up).
What happens after a few years when the originally supported list of detectors is no longer made? Do panel manufacturers keep updating the list to include new detector models? Once they discontinue a panel do they still continue to certify new detector models for their legacy panels?
Good job on the research! I knew that panel manufacturers will only support 2-wire smokes that they officially list as being compatible but I didn't know it affected the UL certification of the installation if you used something not on the list.
As you point out, most 2-wire smokes will work with most 2-wire panels as long as you pay attentention to voltage and current draw. (You can't use a 24-28 volt smoke on a 12 volt panel. Most devices these days are 10-24 volt so it rarely comes up).
What happens after a few years when the originally supported list of detectors is no longer made? Do panel manufacturers keep updating the list to include new detector models? Once they discontinue a panel do they still continue to certify new detector models for their legacy panels?
Based on recent responses I came back to this. If the correlation is indeed correct, wouldnt that imply that they do support the clean me function as they did before?
Since the old model numbers relate to the new ones, isn't that what it means?
My question to Martin was going to be, does he offer 2-wire smokes that are supported by the elk (including the clean me). If I'm reading this correctly, isnt't the answer yes?
I was looking at a 2WTA-B (2 wire, smoke sensor, 2 wire photolelectric, thermal and sounder)
Since the old model numbers relate to the new ones, isn't that what it means?
My question to Martin was going to be, does he offer 2-wire smokes that are supported by the elk (including the clean me). If I'm reading this correctly, isnt't the answer yes?
I was looking at a 2WTA-B (2 wire, smoke sensor, 2 wire photolelectric, thermal and sounder)
Steve
Senior Member
Mike,
The 2wta is from System Sensor i3 series and it has its own proprietary system for maintenance signaling. It is similar to CleanMe, but that is GE's proprietary method for the 521. Why there can't be a standard for remote maintenance signaling is dumb but typical. CleanMe is already supported by the M1 and Martin can get them from you, they are just not listed on his site. The i3's are on his site but the signaling is not supported on M1 as of yet. David expressed some interest in supporting the i3 signaling but during Fridays chat he indicated there is not much room left in M1 for additional code to support new protocols so it depends how complex the i3 code is on whether the M1 will support it.
Note that the i3's (not sure about 521) have on board LED's that flash different rates and colors. I think normal is blinking green. If a detector needs maintenance it goes to blinking red, so you can tell at a glance if it needs maintenance.
I decided on and purchased the i3's. Some of the reasons were I have an old system sensor still working after 12 years (their support actually said as long as they indicate they are ok, they don't ever need replacing) and has been solid - they have a removable head so you can take it down off the ceiling without attached wires, the plastic is UV stabablized so they won't (or at least very slow) yellow, the LED's, etc.
Since I only have 2 and probably adding a 3rd or 4th, I decided I could live without the zoning - if they sound off, I am outta there anyway, and if it was a false or something you can always go back and see which one triggered it. I think you need a reversing relay or something to make them all sound when 1 trips - need to look into that. Hopefully ELK will support the i3 since I think they are the more popular model out there.
The 2wta is from System Sensor i3 series and it has its own proprietary system for maintenance signaling. It is similar to CleanMe, but that is GE's proprietary method for the 521. Why there can't be a standard for remote maintenance signaling is dumb but typical. CleanMe is already supported by the M1 and Martin can get them from you, they are just not listed on his site. The i3's are on his site but the signaling is not supported on M1 as of yet. David expressed some interest in supporting the i3 signaling but during Fridays chat he indicated there is not much room left in M1 for additional code to support new protocols so it depends how complex the i3 code is on whether the M1 will support it.
Note that the i3's (not sure about 521) have on board LED's that flash different rates and colors. I think normal is blinking green. If a detector needs maintenance it goes to blinking red, so you can tell at a glance if it needs maintenance.
I decided on and purchased the i3's. Some of the reasons were I have an old system sensor still working after 12 years (their support actually said as long as they indicate they are ok, they don't ever need replacing) and has been solid - they have a removable head so you can take it down off the ceiling without attached wires, the plastic is UV stabablized so they won't (or at least very slow) yellow, the LED's, etc.
Since I only have 2 and probably adding a 3rd or 4th, I decided I could live without the zoning - if they sound off, I am outta there anyway, and if it was a false or something you can always go back and see which one triggered it. I think you need a reversing relay or something to make them all sound when 1 trips - need to look into that. Hopefully ELK will support the i3 since I think they are the more popular model out there.
Reviving an old thread since I happened to finally get the time to wire the smoke detectors. Everything appears to work, and I included the reversing relays (I selected i3 2-wire smokes with integral sounders). I'll run a test tomorrow to check the reversing relay and that all go off.
In finishing the installation, I noticed that these smokes have 2 extra terminals I did not need. They were for remote annunciators and had a +/- terminal.
While not exactly the cleanest solution, the thought occurred to me that couldn't you use this to wire each detector back to inputs on the panel to understand which one triggered it? I think the wiring might have to be a little different so the panel got the alarm, and the annunciator signal before triggering the output to the reversing relay (currently tied as a rule for when the fire alarm triggers).
It is not perfect as you daisy chain the smokes, but also home run back for the annuniciator.
I'm not sure it is worth the effort, but is the concept sound? The best approach is a pollable solution of course.
I have not hooked up the 2W-MOD2 to pick up the clean me signal yet, but I'll post once I get that installed and working.
In finishing the installation, I noticed that these smokes have 2 extra terminals I did not need. They were for remote annunciators and had a +/- terminal.
While not exactly the cleanest solution, the thought occurred to me that couldn't you use this to wire each detector back to inputs on the panel to understand which one triggered it? I think the wiring might have to be a little different so the panel got the alarm, and the annunciator signal before triggering the output to the reversing relay (currently tied as a rule for when the fire alarm triggers).
It is not perfect as you daisy chain the smokes, but also home run back for the annuniciator.
I'm not sure it is worth the effort, but is the concept sound? The best approach is a pollable solution of course.
I have not hooked up the 2W-MOD2 to pick up the clean me signal yet, but I'll post once I get that installed and working.
