Speaker run suggestions for Whole House Audio Setup

[kujain]

Hi all

I am really hoping for some guidance on this issue:
My house has been pre-wired for whole house audio in the following way:
- keypads location (gangplate only) in each zone
- cat5 home runs from keypad location to central control (basement)
- ceiling speakers pair in each zone
- wiring from speakers into keypads only.

So, based on this, I am assuming that the keypad is expected to be able to control and amplify sound signals that will be transmitted to it from the amplifier/controller in the central control area.

But looking at many existing solutions (Russound, Niles, HTD etc.) these expect homeruns for all speaker connections with an option of running the connections through the keypad for control.

But this doesn't seem doable in my current setup as I only have a cat5 connection between the keypad and the central controller. So I need to find a whole house audio solution that can transmit audio signals through the cat5e cable itself.

I have searched and have found something about an a-bus but not sure that's relevant. Are there any options for such a setup ?

Thanks very much!

 

[Desert_AIP]

Sounds like your house is wired for Abus.
In an Abus system the amps are in the keypads so the speakers connect to them.

Look at the Russound A-C68 controller or the complete A-C560 kit.

 

[pete_c]

Based on your description; how difficult would it be to run a 2 pair 16 guage PVC cable to each location where there is a keypad?

My setup is like that today with 2 speakers in each room; going to a 2 pair PVC jacketed cabled home runned to the basement with the Cat5E from each of the controller boxes.

 

[jautor]

Instead of A-Bus, look at the Digi5 systems from the Linear group (Xantech, Aton, etc.). Both the Xantech and Aton setups are nice, one of the Xantech models is meant to be placed in a structured wiring enclosure, and the other Xantech or Aton model is a shelf or rack-mounted device.

http://www.xantech.com/Audio/AVDistribution/DIGI-5/

http://www.atonhome.com/DH44Router.html

If you can home run the speaker wire, you will get a lot more choices, though.

Jeff

 

[tmbrown97]

I'd do the ABus option... Sure, it's not as good as full homerun where you can run anything, but the russound abus option looks pretty good; I've been considering it for a retrofit to keep life easier.

 

[Neurorad]

Netstreams may be an alternative.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1182360

ABus is a design platform that's patented. Many manufacturers make ABus (TM) systems. Other companies, e.g. Digi5, use the same setup but without the patented technology.

They're all essentially the same - but differerent levels of quality. Will be hard to make comparisons, from user reviews.

How hard will it be to home-run the speaker wires, from the speakers or the keypad locations? I've retrofitted category cables to each of my volume controls (6 zones), and replaced them with keypads, and changed the home-run location of my speakers. Also added 5 zones. Was a lot of work, but generally enjoyable. You may want to consider Sonos.

 

[kujain]

Thanks for all the great advice here!

Yes - you are right - the house IS wired for abus/digi-5 system.
To confirm, I have a paid of 16/2 wire connecting a room speaker to that room's keypad location and 1 cat5 connecting the keypad to the home control location.

I was hesitant to move towards abus as its seem to be relatively "old-tech" (eg russound) and the keypad/controllers provided are very limiting.

Digi-5 based vendors like Aton and Zon audio seems to be a better bet for various reasons:
- more power for the speakers 30W so better sound.
- better control/keypad interface.
- possibility of more source control.


I studied the installation manuals for various digi-5 vendors in depth but could not find answers to a few questions:

1. I know that a digi-5 router can provide discreet audio to each zone, but can the keypad be used to control and select the content as well (eg display ipod metadata, cd tracks etc.)

2. Manuals state that each keypad can be used to connect to only ONE pair of speakers. Would anyone know of any workaround for this? Typical situation being a party room where I have 4 speakers hopefully connected to one keypad. Zon audio does allow upto 10 speakers though, but thye have other disadvantages such as non-availability!

3. Digi-5 allows for local source input (eg. to play a personal ipod in that room). But can this local source input be used to connect an AV receiver in that room to the speakers - more or less to form a surround sound system for the receiver. In effect I am trying to find a double use for the ceiling speakers: as whole house audio output and as a local surround sound output.

4. Is there any way to connect a music server device (eg. a pc with lots of organized music running as a daap server) to the digi-5 router, similar to the nuvo music port? It would be perfect if so!


In many ways digi-5 seems to be a more evolved version of abus using its existing infrastructure, but possibly technology still in development as compared with other technologoes used by established people like Nuvo. It would be great to get some thoughts on the above...

thanks!

 

[jautor]

1. I know that a digi-5 router can provide discreet audio to each zone, but can the keypad be used to control and select the content as well (eg display ipod metadata, cd tracks etc.)

I'm not aware of any that do. Probably a combination of technology and price point. Getting metadata requires manageable sources, transport, and local displays. Use a PC or Sonos as a music server "source" and an iPod/iPhone to select content as a compromise.

2. Manuals state that each keypad can be used to connect to only ONE pair of speakers. Would anyone know of any workaround for this? Typical situation being a party room where I have 4 speakers hopefully connected to one keypad.

Likely a limitation of the small amp - probably won't operate at a 4 ohm load. You might be able to connect both pairs to an in-wall speaker selector with impedance matching (don't know if you can find one of those). But realize that the small amp in these systems is not likely going to fill a big room with party-level music...

3. Digi-5 allows for local source input (eg. to play a personal ipod in that room). But can this local source input be used to connect an AV receiver in that room to the speakers - more or less to form a surround sound system for the receiver. In effect I am trying to find a double use for the ceiling speakers: as whole house audio output and as a local surround sound output.

Yes, it could. You could also use a speaker switch, such as this Niles product:

http://www.nilesaudio.com/product.php?prodID=ABA-1D&recordID=Wall%20Mounted%20Speaker/Amplifier%20Selectors&categoryID=Speaker%20Selectors&catcdID=7&prdcdID=FG00402

to switch between the "local amp" and the "whole house audio".

4. Is there any way to connect a music server device (eg. a pc with lots of organized music running as a daap server) to the digi-5 router, similar to the nuvo music port? It would be perfect if so!

Sure (as in #1 above) - a music server is just another source - connect the PC output to the RCA inputs (use a fixed line out on the PC). You can easily do this even with PC remotely using iTunes, an Airport Express and the Apple Remote app on a iDevice...

In many ways digi-5 seems to be a more evolved version of abus using its existing infrastructure

That's exactly what it is - 'digital' amps applied to the same wiring scheme, since there are a lot of homes wired for A-bus systems...

Jeff

 

[kujain]

Wow...thakns Jeff for such great information!
I dug a little deeper and found a few further options:

1. ZOn audio - this is also based off abus structure but its keypads can provide upto 60W total which can be divided into upto 10 speakers (if used with 25V trnasformers). I agree that the power output isn't great and may not be ideal for parties though but it can simplify other larger rooms with more than 2 speakers.

2. I agree with the metadata and digital music control. Thinking hard about this, I foresee the users of this system to be working of one centralized music source database. But to be able to stream the same data to different zones, we would still need different source inputs. For that one could use multiple sonos devices (with ios app to control them) or possibly multiple airport express (or appletv now) - one for each zone. But I do wonder there was a way to allow simultanous multiple zone streaming from a single digital music source and be able to control them separately through an app interface from each zone.

3. There's also a cheaper option by ON-Q (legrand) that allows for something similar to Aton and ZON, but at a cheaper cost. But possibly with lesser options. But if sonos is the way to go, then it might be enough as its way cheaper than the others! Still looking into it

Thanks for the Niles suggestion - that should do the trick though it does require a physical switching of the speakers!

 

[Desert_AIP]

For multiple speakers you can run the output from the keypad to a separate amp.
This same thing works if you need more amplification than the keypad amp can supply.

 

[kujain]

Thanks for that suggestions Desert_AIP!

So you suggest that I take the stereo output from the speakers to a surround receiver setup in that room ? This could work in my party room I suppose since I would have a separate receiver there anyhow. But for this to work, the final sound control (volume and on/off) will have to be managed through the receiver itself and it will need to be left on when used. Would that be correct?

Also how would a receiver accept an already amplified signal (it would be expecting line-in) ? I cant think of a post amplified input source option...

Or is there a smaller inwall amplifier that can be hooked up to the keypad itself that can be used here ?

Thanks very much!

 

[kujain]

After much deliberation, I decided to keep things simple and make the surround setup for the particular rooms completely separate from the whole house speaker setup. Makes the wiring easier and not too much of an effort required from the user.

I am also considering using Sonos Zoneplayer 90 as the music source for the entire house (hooked up to ONQ audio distribution system). This is because the whole house audio is absically just going to stream music from a music server (pc/osx itunes server) and room users can use wireless devices to control the content. The keypads will still exist to provide amplified sound and otherwise only to turn on/off or volume. I think this should work.

But its not clear to me if I need to setup separate zoneplayers for EACH ZONE or can one serve multiple zones simultaneously. if multiple is required, would I need to somehow limit each zoneplayer for each zone so a user sitting in zone A doesn't accidently play a stream to zone B from her ipad ?

I would really appreciate any help regarding setting up sonos zoneplayers to work for multiple zones and allow different simultaneous tracks to play in each zone.

Thanks !!

 

[jautor]

This is because the whole house audio is absically just going to stream music from a music server (pc/osx itunes server) and room users can use wireless devices to control the content. The keypads will still exist to provide amplified sound and otherwise only to turn on/off or volume. I think this should work.

But its not clear to me if I need to setup separate zoneplayers for EACH ZONE or can one serve multiple zones simultaneously. if multiple is required, would I need to somehow limit each zoneplayer for each zone so a user sitting in zone A doesn't accidently play a stream to zone B from her ipad ?

I would really appreciate any help regarding setting up sonos zoneplayers to work for multiple zones and allow different simultaneous tracks to play in each zone.

That's basically the issue with shared sources. You'll need as many Zoneplayers as you want simultaneous (independent) users. Other music servers (more expensive) contain multiple independent outputs to handle this with one box. For Sonos, you need one per "user".

Now, if you're mostly going to be using an iTunes server/library, you could use Apple Airport Express ($99 vs. $399) instead of or in addition to a Sonos. You don't get the online services (Pandora, etc.) that Sonos will serve up, but IIRC you can at least get Internet Radio in addition to your iTunes library. And control is through the Apple Remote app for the iPod/phone/iPad.

Jeff

 

[Desert_AIP]

Thanks for that suggestions Desert_AIP!

So you suggest that I take the stereo output from the speakers to a surround receiver setup in that room ? This could work in my party room I suppose since I would have a separate receiver there anyhow. But for this to work, the final sound control (volume and on/off) will have to be managed through the receiver itself and it will need to be left on when used. Would that be correct?

Also how would a receiver accept an already amplified signal (it would be expecting line-in) ? I cant think of a post amplified input source option...

Or is there a smaller inwall amplifier that can be hooked up to the keypad itself that can be used here ?

Thanks very much!

I have a couple of these amps. They're tiny and have good sound. Even the lower power ones put out sufficient for background listening and are a step up from the 8 Watt ABus amp.
You can use the 12V trigger out from the ABus controller to close a relay and run the hot leg of the DC power for the amp through the relay contacts to turn the power on and off.
The ABus pad sends a variable out so you can control the volume from the pad, no need to control it from the amp.

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http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350527881119

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[kujain]

Thanks for these links Desert_AIP! Learnt something new today And it opens up other oppurtunities as well...