Starting From Scratch, Suggestions?

[Shinyshoes]

Here we go, post #1!

My wife and I are building a house in spring, so I started investigating whole house audio systems. This lead me to video distribution and HTPCs which in turn lead me to full blown HA. Obviously building a new house provides ample opportunity to do the HA "right", and as a newbie who has never done anything like this, I am calling out to the forum to look for suggestions.

Some background: I live in Canada, and we are moving to the country, so this will be a house on an acreage. We will be building a bungalow style house with an unfinished walkout basement (to be finished in about 5 years) Upstairs, the Kitchen, Dining, and living room are all 1 big "open concept" room. There will be the master suite with an ensuite on it, 2 other bedrooms, a bathroom and a laundry room. Downstairs, we have plans for a media room, a "games area" with a wet bar, an office, 2 more bedrooms, a bathroom, and a mechanical room.

Currently, the only peice of electronics that I own that will be a part of my future HA system is a Yamaha RX-V2500. I also have 7 good quality mirage speakers, but untill the basement gets finished, im not sure how they will tie in to my new house. I am a computer geek by day, so I have also have a laptop, a desktop pc (for the wife) and a home server that we currently use to host our pictures and music, and could be turned into a HTPC easily.

I am leaning toward a Nuvo Concerto or Grand Concerto for my whole house audio, however I have a friend that sells Sonance, and is trying to convince me to go that route. Audio Sources will include the HTPC, Satellite, Xbox, Wii, and Radio via the RX-V2500. For Video sources, I have an Xbox, a Wii, the HTPC and since I will be living in the country, Cable is not available, so my Satellite options are Bell ExpresssView or Starchoice.

My Objectives:
1) standard whole house audio, including living room, master suite, ensuite, and deck. Future expansion will include media room, games room, office, and possibly even my yet to be built shop.
2) video distribution to the Living room, and ensuite with future expansion to the media room, games room and possibly the office. Future Display under counter in the kitchen is a possibility too.
3) PVR of some kind. I dont care whether this is done via a STB or the HTPC
4) HVAC control, potentially for multiple zones
5) Future lighting control. I would like to do this eventually, but I think the learning curve will be great enough that I could push this part off for a few years, but I do eventually want to do it.
6) Future CCTV at our gate. most likely just the 1 camera, but you never know.....

There are also a lot of other things I have read about that I am interested in, but don't necissarily need to do, such as Washer/Dryer notification, Garage Door control, Window Covering control, Smoke detectors, flood detectors, etc.

That about covers it, so I am looking for suggestions from everyone on what Hardware and software to go with to make this happen. If you just had an RX-v2500, and were going to start from scratch, what Software/Hardware would you go with?

Thanks
Shinyshoes

 

[123]

Remember the line from "The Graduate"? "Just one word: Plastics."

You're building a new home and you want to automate it? "Just one word: Wiring."

Read the Cocoontech classic "Wiring your new house 101". Once every nook and cranny of your new home is wired for lighting, sound, motion, entry, presence, smoke, heat, water, etc the HA universe will unfold before you.

Don't forget, Wiring.

 

[Neurorad]

Read the Cocoontech classic "Wiring your new house 101". Once every nook and cranny of your new home is wired for lighting, sound, motion, entry, presence, smoke, heat, water, etc the HA universe will unfold before you.

Scroll down in that linked thread to post #5 for a valid download link. Easy to miss - first post link is dead.

Edit - and welcome.

 

[Shinyshoes]

Thanks for the quick reply guys. I have already read those documents, and it gave me even more Ideas, however not as much concerned with the Wiring aspect of the equipment yest as I am the hardware.

What HA software do you use/Would you use for a new installation? Homeseer, QCQ, MainLobby?
What about Whole house audio? Nuvo? Russound? Sonance?
STB or HTPC for recording Satellite?
Starchoice or Bell Satellite better for HA?
What IR Blasters to use?

These are the types of answers I'm looking for.

 

[beelzerob]

Hey Shiny, welcome. If I'm not mistaken, you tried to register at CQC forums, right? I think you might have gotten blasted by Dean by accident...he's very aggressive in the anti-spammer category. He's of the *blam* "Halt, or I'll shoot again!" variety when it comes to forum registrations. I think we can all safely say you're not a spammer...or at least you really suck at it.

I know you sent me a PM there (though I wasn't able to read it) about the yamaha 2500, so I already mentioned to Dean you might have been legit. If you still aren't registered there, then it'd probably be good to send him a headsup, via PM from here. Just search for member Dean Roddey on these forums and ask him what it takes to get registered.

 

[beelzerob]

Future Display under counter in the kitchen is a possibility too.

Whoa, that'll be cool. You'll have to let me know if that works better than an under cabinet display. I'd think it'd be a pain to have to bend down that far to see it....

Ya know, it's kinda freaky how similar your beginnings is to what mine was. What inspired my first foray into home automation was because I owned a Yamaha RX1500, and I wanted to use it for distributed audio. I was also bigtime into HTPCs, including a regular at the old htpcnews.com website, and silentpcreview.com. My first two major undertakings for home automation was writing a CQC driver for the Yamaha and for SageTV (pvr software).

We also have recently built our own house, and while it wasn't my beginnings into home automation, it certainly let me go WILD when it came to wiring. We wired for 1) standard whole house audio, 2) video distribution (including touchscreen under the kitchen cabinets), 3) PVR in the basement, 4) HVAC control (in use currently), and 5) Future lighting control, which we've only recently actually begun implementing. No CCTV anywhere yet.

You came to the right place. First question is if you're going to be able (allowed) to do your own low voltage wiring. If so, then the skies the limit and be prepared to lose several weeks and a couple thousand dollars to the effort. If you're limited in what you're allowed to do to the house, then you're really going to have to pick and choose.

123 is right, though...at this point, wiring is your task to learn. If you have the, you can read my thread I wrote while wiring our new house under construction. Sadly, I lost the pics after the last ISP change, but there's still good info in there and several links to other threads dealing with making the decisions on type of wire for a given application, etc.

 

[Shinyshoes]

yeah, beelzerob, that was me on the QCQ forum. My PM was simply about what language the Driver was written in, and if you could give me what you have got for the 1500 so I can start modifying it for the 2500.

As for the under counter display in the kitchen, I have a very short wife...........or my brain wasnt working just then....one of the 2.

Thanks for the quick reply, and I will definatly look at your wiring progress thread. We have decided on the builder for our house, and the low voltage stuff is wide open for us to do. As I stated earlier, I have a buddy who has a business selling and installing multi-room audio and home theatre, so I will also have his expertise to draw from when we finally do have walls up.

I wanted to see what the community was using, but I was looking deepest into CQC and Homeseer for my HA software. Does anyone know if Homeseer will do the RX-V2500? I know that CQC does not, but other Yamahas have been done successfully.

I have to admit that I am leaning toward CQC as the software for my application, but if that is the case, I will have to get a driver for my 2500. Any tips and/or source code would be fantastic.

 

[beelzerob]

For the 1500, that driver and all CQC drivers are written in CML, which is CQC's proprietary scripting language. Basically it's a relatively object-oriented crossbreed between Ada, C++, and java (in my opinion). If you have any programming experience, then there's a decent chance you can pick it up. The biggest problem is there's not so much a learning curve for CML drivers, as there is a learning cliff you have to climb up...and once you're up there, then it starts to make sense. But that initial learning how it all works together is toughies.

The code for the 1500 and all other drivers is freely available, once you've installed CQC (including the trial version). You can open up the driver code in the driver test harness, modify it, and go from there.

The Yamahas are an interesting beast. I wrote the 1500 driver and also an 1700/2700 driver. However, I found it wasn't worth the effort just modding one driver to suite the other device....I had to start from scratch. That's because although the general structure of the RS232 protocols is the same, there were just slightly enough differences to make it too much of a headache to track down. It was easier to start over.

 

[briankelly63]

First.... decide if you'd like to remain married... how much of your life and money do you want to spend on this or can you afford to just pay someone else to do a lot of this for you. How technical are you (hardware vs. software). Consider how much automation you really need, a lot of the items outlined here on this forum are major overkill and not wife or family friendly. In many homes it is not important to know exactly which light or appliance is on at any given moment. On the other hand its nice to have one or two switches in a given space (that normal people can operate) that turn on or off many of the lights in a given space or on a given floor.

Run lots of cat5 / coax and run some roof to basement / floor closets to basement pvc conduits for running other things later. Run home runs but loop the cat5 around all the studs in a given room so you can tap in to a different wall when the one you planned doesn't work out.

For small lighting automation projects even the older Leviton X10 switches still work but many people now use UPB. How much do you want to pay for a light switch? Some might consider $100 for a switch RIDICUIOUS but then this is a niche market. If money was no object you'd want to use the $100 switches that are controled by cat5 wires that run to them, other Power Line Carrier or RF is ok... both the latter have some issues.

My point is that on a new property there's a tendency to get carried away, resist that urge... Another example do you need an HA system to water the lawn or does a standalone controller work just fine... If you ever sell this house will the electronics be workable by someone else or can the home be returned to a simpler state without too much trouble. The rest I'll leave for the "book" and other commenters..

Brian

 

[Shinyshoes]

If you have any programming experience, then there's a decent chance you can pick it up

Thanks. I am a computer programmer by day, so I will download the Trial for CQC this weekend and have a look at the 1500 and see if I think my abilities match what I am looking for.
[quote post='111992' date='Apr 8 2009, 03:09 PM']How technical are you (hardware vs. software). Consider how much automation you really need, ...

<snip>

If you ever sell this house will the electronics be workable by someone else or can the home be returned to a simpler state without too much trouble.[/quote]We are building this house to be a "lifer". We plan on being there for 50 years, so resale is not that important. WAF is definatly a factor. Technically I think i am pretty good, both hardware and software. And I do heed your advice about not going overkill, however while the walls are bare, I would rather wire way too much than not enough.

Any comments on what hardware to use?

 

[beelzerob]

Most discussions of specific devices you can put off for now...you need to know wiring first. (of course, this presumes you don't have a lot of time..most people come running in here panting and sweating because they have to wire their house THIS WEEKEND and they don't know where to start). With a little research, you can wire for just about any device you might end up getting. I don't recommend wiring for a specific device if you can avoid it....unless that device uses a very common form of wiring (like cat5).

Overall, you'll find the most common stuff to run is 22/4, Cat5e, and RG6QS.

Again, it's kinda weird the stuff we have in common. I'm also a programmer (ahem, "Software Engineer"), we also built this house as a lifer house (hand picked location), so I'm not all that concerned about how my home automation adventures will convert to resale value, and WAF is essential (my wife actually helped with the wire running..in fact, I couldn't have done it without her).

However....do not DO NOT look at the RX1500 driver as an example. It was my first driver, and boy have I come a long way. That driver is a mess, and even I would not go back into that driver to fix something (though i'm currently using it). A much much better example is the RX-Vx700 driver. Cleaner, simpler, and works fine.

At one point, once I'd finished the x700 driver, I actually undertook to recreate the 1500 driver in that mold, and it just wasn't working. That's what I mean about how the differences in the protocols for the Yamahas are juuuuuust different enough to be a burden trying to change the driver from one to the other. If I ever end up having any issues with the 1500, I'll probably start from complete scratch and re-write it, but for now...it works!

 

[felixrosbergen]

Being programmers, do you guys work from home mostly?

Thats got to be great.

 

[beelzerob]

That would be great!

Actually, I don't think I have the character for it. I need the structure of being far away from home in order to get me motivated to work. I goof off enough AT work....I can't imagine trying to "work" at home.

 

[IVB]

I have some wiring thoughts & a few wiring diagram samples in the site in my sig.

Like Beelzerob said - focus on wiring first, run wire wire & more wire, then when you're done, run 3 more CAT5e to every location, and you'll still be short.

All selections of software & hardware can come second, once the wiring is in.

 

[Shinyshoes]

Most discussions of specific devices you can put off for now...you need to know wiring first. (of course, this presumes you don't have a lot of time..most people come running in here panting and sweating because they have to wire their house THIS WEEKEND and they don't know where to start).

Actually, the house will be built later this spring, so I have a couple of months before I need to be ready

Again, it's kinda weird the stuff we have in common. I'm also a programmer (ahem, "Software Engineer"), we also built this house as a lifer house (hand picked location), so I'm not all that concerned about how my home automation adventures will convert to resale value, and WAF is essential (my wife actually helped with the wire running..in fact, I couldn't have done it without her).

Any chance you live in Canada? Alberta Specifically?

A much much better example is the RX-Vx700 driver. Cleaner, simpler, and works fine.

Ok, I will look at it this weekend.

Being programmers, do you guys work from home mostly?

Thats got to be great.

I wish. It just means that I go to work to get paid to program, then I come home and not get paid to program.....

I have some wiring thoughts & a few wiring diagram samples in the site in my sig.

IVB, I have read a great deal about your progress and have been to your site many times, and from a high level view it is great, but I am still a little confused. Specifically, what do you use to do your video switching? is it done via your sage? or somewhere on your HTPC?