Sticker shock on Elk expansion
- Thread starter ncgoober
- Start date
fcwilt
Active Member
The M1 is primarily a security system with a little bit of automation added in.
If you are not going to use it AS a security system then I would never suggest it as the basis of a home automation system.
For example in my home I have an M1 as the security part of my system but the primary automation system is based on Elan g! hardware.
You have expressed concern about costs - good home automation, in general, is expensive. To date I've invested well in excess of $35K.
So what is it that you want to do? Knowing that will lead us to the correct hardware.
If you are not going to use it AS a security system then I would never suggest it as the basis of a home automation system.
For example in my home I have an M1 as the security part of my system but the primary automation system is based on Elan g! hardware.
You have expressed concern about costs - good home automation, in general, is expensive. To date I've invested well in excess of $35K.
So what is it that you want to do? Knowing that will lead us to the correct hardware.
Well the basics....I'm an electrical engineer that built my own house from the sub-floor through the roofing shingles plus plumbing and electrical.
That was 20+ years ago though and now I'm not adverse to spending money for things that work from the get-go and are well designed.
I've read some good things about Elk but in reality I'm starting to think those reviews may have been stale and that the product is long on the tooth.
Once again I don't mind paying for stuff that works, but the design of the elk124 and the bolt-ons to the Elk lead me to believe its an old system in desperate need of an update.
It may have been the leader at one time but it just seems too clunky for it still to be at the top of the heap.
I have a bias against wirelss sensors and outputs in general because they seem rife with false alarms.
I know my house down to the individual studs and I have wiring chases from basement through the attic for additional sensor/control wiring.
In general, if there is a wired version of a sensor/output/pad avaiable versus a wireless, I'd generally want the wired. (OTOH if a lightbulb is easily handled by X10/insteon I'd choose that)
The wireless features that I would like to have though is status/control from old iPhones that I have laying around and ideally some cheap android Nook HD+ pads I picked up.
I mainly want a bullet proof home security that has internet connectivity and alert capability.
I already have an 8 camera system accessible by internet that I may run some kind of hack back and forth to the security system.
I'd say I'd want the security system to be able to grow to handle some modest automation...but not anything gee-whiz...definately more utilitarian.
I'm in a rural area an have a well pump and sewage system that has a LPP pump and I'd love to be able to get some current/load sensors on them that can track/chart how they are working or be able to chart their usage and see if something is amiss before they fail or whatever.
For things like that I'd like to have a fairly rich IO options.
The security system functions I know I need are
2-4 outside motion/IR
3-4 inside motion/IP
10-20 loop sensors
5-10 output lights
canned messages and sound files to speakers
A robust and flexible programming capability that allows me to do any output when any kind of condition I specify happens.
1 X/y/Z axis controller for a remote controlled AK47 .... well maybe that last one can wait a bit
That was 20+ years ago though and now I'm not adverse to spending money for things that work from the get-go and are well designed.
I've read some good things about Elk but in reality I'm starting to think those reviews may have been stale and that the product is long on the tooth.
Once again I don't mind paying for stuff that works, but the design of the elk124 and the bolt-ons to the Elk lead me to believe its an old system in desperate need of an update.
It may have been the leader at one time but it just seems too clunky for it still to be at the top of the heap.
I have a bias against wirelss sensors and outputs in general because they seem rife with false alarms.
I know my house down to the individual studs and I have wiring chases from basement through the attic for additional sensor/control wiring.
In general, if there is a wired version of a sensor/output/pad avaiable versus a wireless, I'd generally want the wired. (OTOH if a lightbulb is easily handled by X10/insteon I'd choose that)
The wireless features that I would like to have though is status/control from old iPhones that I have laying around and ideally some cheap android Nook HD+ pads I picked up.
I mainly want a bullet proof home security that has internet connectivity and alert capability.
I already have an 8 camera system accessible by internet that I may run some kind of hack back and forth to the security system.
I'd say I'd want the security system to be able to grow to handle some modest automation...but not anything gee-whiz...definately more utilitarian.
I'm in a rural area an have a well pump and sewage system that has a LPP pump and I'd love to be able to get some current/load sensors on them that can track/chart how they are working or be able to chart their usage and see if something is amiss before they fail or whatever.
For things like that I'd like to have a fairly rich IO options.
The security system functions I know I need are
2-4 outside motion/IR
3-4 inside motion/IP
10-20 loop sensors
5-10 output lights
canned messages and sound files to speakers
A robust and flexible programming capability that allows me to do any output when any kind of condition I specify happens.
1 X/y/Z axis controller for a remote controlled AK47 .... well maybe that last one can wait a bit
Frederick C. Wilt said:
I wouldn't say nix the Elk if you're doing all of the HA elsewhere. The Elk integrates very nicely with 3rd party automation products, and it's very flexible. I still use some of the automation rules on the Elk to supplement the Vera. For example, I use a phantom output that changes state based on whether or not the chime is off which allows the Vera to make decisions on whether or not to speak voice alerts. I use tasks to automate some arming and disarming and control relays. I looked at other options when I moved, but I liked my Elk so much, I ended up buying an installing another one 2 weeks ago, knowing full well that nearly all of the automation was going to happen with the vera. It's a good system. As far as flexibility goes, HAI is really the only other choice from what I've seen. I definitely don't think he made a mistake buying the Elk.
As far as wired/wireless I/O for the vera, it will communicate to other devices over the network (like my Ecobee thermostats), you can add USB->serial adapters and connect it to equipment that way (this is how it communicates with my lighting controller), and it's got a built in Z-wave radio (my locks and a couple of switches). All of the automated lighting technologies out there have their strengths and drawbacks. Some people are going to tell you Z-wave sucks. But, I've had no issues with it (other than some GE switches having crappy build quality). And there is a TON of devices that are Z-wave capable, far more than any other technology. AND, you're not locked into a specific vendor for equipment. (Dont' like GE switches, buy another brand).
The nice thing about the Elk plugin for the Vera is that the vera gets realtime updates for sensors. So instead of having to buy a bunch of Z-wave sensors, it uses the alarm sensors instead (or in addition to). Sense motion in the garage after dark? Turn on the garage lights until you don't see motion for 5 minutes. Nursery door opens in the middle of night, fire off a voice alert that tells the kids to go back to bed because it's not time to get up yet.
Another thing the Elk has going for it is that it's easy to configure with ElkRP. I'm not sure what other vendors have, but I know some of them require programming through the keypad. I had an old Ademco system many years ago that was like this, and it sucked to work with.
tmbrown97
Senior Member
Yeah - it's a bit dated in the sense that Wireless security technology has been around a very long time - and really it hasn't needed to change yet. There are some things about the M1 that could most certainly be updated to match the current era (like a major revamp of the XEP) - but what it does from a security standpoint is tried and true and it's reliable enough to be UL Listed as a FACP - that says something, and that takes a long time to get to.
The other consideration is that everyone hates RS232 and thinks it's antiquated - but guess what? It works... it doesn't quit working when you switch to the next UVerse or FIOS offering and get a new router and change your ip address scheme, or when you change out your network switch, or your kid accidentally sets a static IP that conflicts... it just works - it's a direct connection and a means for sending two-way commands and status. Sure it's not as popular on computers these days - but do you want your security system tied to your home network? I build networks for a living and I don't...
I still use the M1 for 90% of my automation, although I did just buy HomeSeer and want to get into another level of automation - but I've gone 6 or so years on the M1 and haven't seen anything else better come along yet that's made me doubt my purchase.
The other consideration is that everyone hates RS232 and thinks it's antiquated - but guess what? It works... it doesn't quit working when you switch to the next UVerse or FIOS offering and get a new router and change your ip address scheme, or when you change out your network switch, or your kid accidentally sets a static IP that conflicts... it just works - it's a direct connection and a means for sending two-way commands and status. Sure it's not as popular on computers these days - but do you want your security system tied to your home network? I build networks for a living and I don't...
I still use the M1 for 90% of my automation, although I did just buy HomeSeer and want to get into another level of automation - but I've gone 6 or so years on the M1 and haven't seen anything else better come along yet that's made me doubt my purchase.
ncgoober said:
The remote controlled AK47 is easily taken care of.
Not that I'm recommending it.
http://www.precisionremotes.com/inverted-trap-t360I
fcwilt
Active Member
It sounds like the ELK M1 is still a good fit for what you want to do.
The M1 can send out ASCII strings over a serial port if you find other hardware that you wish to use which needs that kind of control.
I have an M1 in my primary home. It was a retrofit and all of the sensors are wireless - I have had ZERO issues with false alarms - the biggest downside in my book is having to replace all the batteries every few years.
If the automation capabilities of the M1 are not satisfactory you could consider using it in conjunction with a software automation package like CQC which is a very versatile and capabile product.
http://www.charmedquark.com/#/CQSLHome
There are also some hardware based automation systems that might be of interest to you (to use in conjunction with the M1) but the only one I am versed on is the Elan g!.
The M1 can send out ASCII strings over a serial port if you find other hardware that you wish to use which needs that kind of control.
I have an M1 in my primary home. It was a retrofit and all of the sensors are wireless - I have had ZERO issues with false alarms - the biggest downside in my book is having to replace all the batteries every few years.
If the automation capabilities of the M1 are not satisfactory you could consider using it in conjunction with a software automation package like CQC which is a very versatile and capabile product.
http://www.charmedquark.com/#/CQSLHome
There are also some hardware based automation systems that might be of interest to you (to use in conjunction with the M1) but the only one I am versed on is the Elan g!.
OP, I can't speak for you but I do have frustrations because when I think home automation, I think technology. However, those two words really don't belong together. If you want the latest/greatest then look elsewhere. Home automation, especially with the security aspect, is primarily focused on reliability. I regularly read Engadget and all of the cool things that are announced probably won't be available for integration for years, if ever.
@Fred "The M1 can send out ASCII strings over a serial port if you find other hardware that you wish to use and needs that kind of control."
I don't see that in the installation manual. Where is that documented at? Does this come off the native rs232 port of M1 or do you need the M1XSP option? RS232 isn't multidrop so am I only able to put one custom rs232 device?
So if I just went all wireless sensors and outputs does the Vera become a practical option for home security?
Does Vera have equivalently powerful and capable rules programming for security as Elk?
I see Vera has USB connections, could i just hang a USB hub off of Vera and plug in a bunch of cheap usb-to-rs232C converters and hang a bunch of cheap rs232C IO devices that I can define?
Lastly what app on Vera is used to program all the security rules? I skated around that site for 30 mins or more and it's definately not obvious (to me any way)
I don't see that in the installation manual. Where is that documented at? Does this come off the native rs232 port of M1 or do you need the M1XSP option? RS232 isn't multidrop so am I only able to put one custom rs232 device?
So if I just went all wireless sensors and outputs does the Vera become a practical option for home security?
Does Vera have equivalently powerful and capable rules programming for security as Elk?
I see Vera has USB connections, could i just hang a USB hub off of Vera and plug in a bunch of cheap usb-to-rs232C converters and hang a bunch of cheap rs232C IO devices that I can define?
Lastly what app on Vera is used to program all the security rules? I skated around that site for 30 mins or more and it's definately not obvious (to me any way)
ncgoober said:
You're talking about forgoing an actual security system and using the Vera as one? I guess you could do this. It's possible. I actually thought about this, but I like having and actual security system in place. It's the one thing that doesn't change, and I may swap out the Vera with something else in the future.
I want to say I don't recommend doing that, but I really have no basis for saying that. The Z-wave sensors are probably cheaper. You'd just need to figure out a way to do sirens and other stuff. There's a lot of logic involved in a security system, and you'd be on your own writing it.
As far as programming capability, the Vera far exceeds the Elk. With the Elk, you're limited to "WHENEVER this happens, DO that." With the Vera, you have the full LUA programming language at your fingertips. And yes, you can hang a USB hub off of it and connect a bunch of serial devices to it. Yes, you'll probably have to learn LUA (although the program logic plugin has removed a lot of the need for that). But LUA is easy, and the Micasaverde forums are full of helpful people and LUA is pretty easy to learn. I didn't even know it, and I wrote the plugin for my LiteTouch system in 2 evenings.
whlatimer
Member
ncgoober said:
If I may, let me jump in here with my recent experience. I currently have Elk M1 Gold and prior to November, had a HomeSeer Hometroller with HSPRO and an assortment of X-10 & zWave devices. My frustration with X10 powerline vagaries, the pain of registering zWave devices and the Elk Automation rules, lead me to Insteaon. I acquired an ISY994i PRO from Universal Devices as the cornerstone to an Insteon system and replaced 20+ lamp modules and wall switches with comparable Insteon units.
I have never looked back; the ISY994i offers integration with the Elk as well as ability to control X10 devices. My ISY "listens" for Elk zone voilations and performs whatever tasks I designate.
Take a look at Insteon with an ISY994i controller.
signal15 said:
Could you please tell the model of the USB hub you are using and how many ports? I only see one hub with 4 ports described as "working" on the Vera's wiki page: http://wiki.micasaverde.com/index.php/Serial_Supported_Hardware.
picta said:
Hmmm....I would think a safer route would be a USB hub (1 USB upstram / 4-8 ports downstream) and then hang individual cheap USB-to-1-serial-port cables. I would think that multiport rs23c adapters would possible be more confusing to Vera drivers. Conversely a usb hub with a sinle rs232 connection per port would seem to be easier for drivers to enumerate. You know there was a day when companies released a product with HW ports on it they would ACTUALLY test a ton load of peripherals to provide a long list of known devices. This would indicate that you made a solid product and wouldn't get a crap load of field issues. Nowdays....not so much.
