Sticker shock on Elk expansion

[ncgoober]

So I'm kinda rushing to get some hardware in hand so I can install during vacation at end of year so after a quick assesment I decided to get an Elk M1 Gold because it seemed like it had plenty of HW and SW support.
 
One of the big things I wanted to do was have the capability to play recorded messages triggered by certain events.
 
So now when I go look at what i need to do that I get hit with some significant sticker shock and some very in-elegent design aspects.
 
So the 8 channel palyer  Elk-127 for ~150$ so I just got to suck that up, Ok.
BUT then....
I find out that the stupid sound input for the card is some dumb ass mic input and a pushbutton?  Huh?  No line level input?
Well then I see they have a Elk-129 sound card interface for another $80 or so that I thought I can digitally load some high-quality digital wave files.
Then I read the manual and it seems like it has some rube goldberg mish-mash of cabling and crap, twiddling with analog volumes, and I'm like WTF?
Then I realize that each of the damn sounds of the sound player needs a discrete digital output to trigger it...what?
They have an rs485 serial port on the system yet they use discrete IO to trigger the 8 sounds...another big WTF?
Then I see that a 16bit output expander is about $150 so those 8 outputs chew up 75$ of outputs
 
So at the end of story it ends up costing me $150+ $75 +$75 = $300 to be able to play a lousy 8 minutes of sounds.  Jeez, this better be some damn good SW.
 
So finally some questions.....
1) Is there any 3rd party that has cheaper IO that works with ELK?
2) Has anybody hacked into the elk-127 to find out a place to hack on a line level input.  If not, I'm diving in and finding myself.  It seems that the one sid eof the mic jumper might just be line level?
3) Is there any good synopsis of the merits of all the differnt motion detectors and which are the best, the worst, and the best value?
 

 

[fcwilt]

I don't know what an ELK-127 is. The ones I know of are the ELK-120 and the ELK-124.
 
And of course you only ever need one ELK-129.
 
It would seem possible that you could mod the board for line input BUT if the mic level input is on the chip itself you might run into noise issues.
 
And if memory serves me the multiple inputs allow combining the separates sounds during playback into one long "sound". I believe that if you trigger, say, inputs 1, 2 and 3 together then the sounds 1, 2 and 3 will play in sequence.
 
But it's been awhile since I've worked with one and my memory may be playing tricks on me.
 
 
You might be able to use the voice capabilties of the M1 alone - depending on what you are trying to do.

 

[tmbrown97]

I did the Elk-124 route - and it was a little costly but not too bad.  If you use the Elk 129 computer interface module, it gives you a 1/8" input to use to plug into your computer.  There's also software you can use to interface - that all turned out to be pointless especially since I often used my mac or phone to play the sounds.  If you press the button to record at the same time as you hit "Play" you don't need the software and you don't need to care about file formats.
 
The 8 outputs can be accomplished using the stock cable that goes from the connector on the M1 for the voltage-only outputs - plug that cable directly into the 124 and you have that covered.
 
and yes - you can combine channels into single longer channels if desired.
 
If you're interested in a used pair (124/129) I could probably offer mine up - I'm actually about to move to HomeSeer (just bought it) and will likely use that in place of the 124... i never got around to reinstalling the 124 here (really miss it but have been too busy to finish wiring a few things).
 
As an all-hardware rock-solid solution it really did serve me well - and I had fun with it, changing doorbells and doing custom halloween sounds, etc.

 

[wuench]

Yeah, it's really not worth it for 8 slots of audio or whatever.  One of the areas where Elk is archaic and drops the ball.   I started to go down this route, but threw in the towel due to cost and space for the card and complexity of programming it, etc, etc.
 
Between this and lack of proper support for simple things like email, SSL, and platforms besides Windows, Elk really needs a refresh...   I don't think the current platform will be viable in 5 years, makes it hard to recommend to anyone...  When is the CT April Fool's platform coming out

 

[dgage]

Wuench, in regards to your last comments, is HAI any better? 

 

[BaduFamily]

if I wanted to do an audio component with this Elk I just installed I would do somethign inspired by the recent threads describing upgrades to the Elk voice.
 
TCP/IP via virtual phones to an outboard box.
 
Probably a Pi. then a small mixer ( possibly amp ) back into however you've got your audio hooked up.

 

[signal15]

Just buy a vera, install VeraAlerts, find an old android phone or tablet, and do this:
 
http://cocoontech.com/forums/topic/24029-how-im-feeding-the-elk-and-other-devices-into-the-stock-elk-speakers-with-a-mixer/
 
If you've already got an old android phone or tablet, then you're talking about $250-270 for the rest of the stuff you need, and you get high quality text to speech and the capability to play sound files and change alert tones.  It works awesome.  I moved all voice alerts from the Elk onto this, and have it doing a bunch more stuff that the Elk isn't capable of.  It's a great solution.
 
If you already have a Sonos setup in your house, you don't need the android device.

 

[wuench]

I haven't done enough research on HAI, but I would definitely not rule them out if you are looking.   They seem to have a lot more options.  
 
I should add that all the staleness may be a result of these mfgs have to deal with certification etc.  Probably why Elk offloaded the higher level functions into the M1XEP.  The automation is not really their primary concern.   Like mentioned above, It may be that these security panels just be relegated to do what they do best, and other microcontrollers (ISY, Vera, Pi) fill the gap.

 

[signal15]

I haven't done enough research on HAI, but I would definitely not rule them out if you are looking.   They seem to have a lot more options.  
 
I should add that all the staleness may be a result of these mfgs have to deal with certification etc.  Probably why Elk offloaded the higher level functions into the M1XEP.  The automation is not really their primary concern.   Like mentioned above, It may be that these security panels just be relegated to do what they do best, and other microcontrollers (ISY, Vera, Pi) fill the gap.

 
It is UL listing requirements that cause the "staleness".  Which makes me wonder, is that Xfinity security thing UL listed?

 

[ncgoober]

Yeah @ Fred I meant to type Elk-124
 
I can't use the native M1 voice TTS vocabulary, I need to play certain real voice files and such.
 
@ Work2play,
Yes i realize my first option is to use the native M1 outputs but eventually if I keep having need for more outputs those 8 outputs for the selk-124  will eventually cost me the extra $75.  But in reality that may be quite a long time, and so maybe I'm being too fussy at this juncture.
 
  I would be interested in buying your old elk-124.   I reread the 124/129 manuals and I'm 99% certain that the JP1 jumper on the 124 essentially chooses either the amplified mic signal of the 124 or a line level signal from the 129.  To me the 129 just further complicates what should have been a simple line level input on the 124.  Crazy dumb design...worse than junior engineer work. The only advantage of something like this is to sell a bunch of overpriced hardware.
 
Kinda discouraging about the under whelming support of M1 but I'm thinking I'll just plow ahead with  a 124 and using the 8 native outputs of the M1.
 
I do see that there is a plain old Rs232c on the M1.  I would think that there has to be a cheap IO card that uses RS232 commands to Rx/Tx commands to.   Anybody know of any?  I'm tempted to run off and see if there is some sound playing device controlled by rs232 but I need to get stuff in hand for the install in a week or so.

 

[fcwilt]

The M1 supports 10 user recordable voice slots which might be enough depending on your needs.
 
The ELK-129 is used with a number of different ELK products so not duplicating its functions on each and every unit makes a certain amount of sense. I find the inclusion of any audio input at all rather odd as opposed to simply having a single device sort of like the 129 that would accept audio in various formats and load the resulting digitized data into the various units.
 
ELK is a small company with limited resources and they still manage to turn out quite a useful line of products. And they are clearly not trying to sell a bunch of overpriced hardware. They are very nice folks and easy to work with.

 

[ncgoober]

This is what the elk-124 should be.....
 
capability of playing upto 200 differnt MP3 sound files of limitless length from flash card..............for $10
Would have to figure out how to send rs232c cmds to it
 
 
99 max files via rs232 and 10 discrete input lines for first ten files.....$20
http://www.mdfly.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=9_53&products_id=1030
 
5 discrete lines for 5$
http://www.ebay.com/itm/U-disk-audio-player-SD-card-voice-module-MP3-Voice-module-WTV020-SD-16P/370668434887?_trksid=p2047675.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D11%26meid%3D3408476304422645054%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D1005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D160806790230%26
 
 
Limitless tracks/lengths (rs232) AND/OR 4 discrete lines to play tracks 1-4  ...... for $14
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WT5001M02-28P-MP3-Sound-module-Arduino-U-disk-audio-player-SD-card-voice-module-/200982496247?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ecb7d83f7
 
16 discreet lines or rs232 for $90
http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=R1022405

 

[ncgoober]

@Fred
 
Thanks for the tip about the 10 user/custom messages.....that can solve some some of the needs I have.
 
Found the info in spec..... "this option is used in conjuction with a house telephone (microphone) to record up to 10
custom voice messages. Each message occupies a 6 second block. Two or more
consecutive blocks may be linked together for longer times. Total record time cannot exceed
60 seconds."

 

[signal15]

@Fred
 
Thanks for the tip about the 10 user/custom messages.....that can solve some some of the needs I have.
 
Found the info in spec..... "this option is used in conjuction with a house telephone (microphone) to record up to 10
custom voice messages. Each message occupies a 6 second block. Two or more
consecutive blocks may be linked together for longer times. Total record time cannot exceed
60 seconds."

 
I used these on my last system.  The thing that sucks is you have to record them via an analog phone, so you don't get the best sound quality.

 

[ncgoober]

The thing that sucks is you have to record them via an analog phone, so you don't get the best sound quality.

 
It's apparent this thing was designed in a previous era.
 
I still have the Elk in its shrink wrap.  I have a separate video surveliience that I'm satisfied with and don't need to integrate that into the Elk. 
 
If my primary need is .....
Flexible support of a bunch of wired sensors
Support of  modest amount (<20) of wireless sensors  ideally without having to spend $140 adder to enable wireless
Ethernet access enablement without requiring a $200+ adder
 
Now I'm discovering that  x10/insteon isn't native?  What's the short story with that?  What's a cost effective way to achieve that?
 
I'm starting to seriously doubt my purchase.