suggestions and guidance

[nightwalker]

I would use (and I do) and M1 Elk to do these things and more... no PC required. You can do a lot with rules, sensors and get a really first class alrm system in the process.... Brian

that is the response I was somewhat expecting, however it seems to run into concern number one in my original post, "...put a lot of time, money, and effort into a system and components that I would then have to leave behind and start all over in a new house..." in a few years

doesn't it?

No reason you can't keep that old alarm system to reinstall when you move and take your new stuff with you. If you know this is a temporary home for you I'd make sure you can put the old switches back in and everything else you install, unless of course the buyer is willing to go the extra, can be removed. and reinstalled at the new home. A ;ott;e drywall compound and paint goes a long way to hiding what used to be there and it's probably something you'd do before you sell anyway. Some of my automation equipment has been with me through an apartment and two houses.

 

[irish]

I would use (and I do) and M1 Elk to do these things and more... no PC required. You can do a lot with rules, sensors and get a really first class alrm system in the process.... Brian

that is the response I was somewhat expecting, however it seems to run into concern number one in my original post, "...put a lot of time, money, and effort into a system and components that I would then have to leave behind and start all over in a new house..." in a few years

doesn't it?

No reason you can't keep that old alarm system to reinstall when you move and take your new stuff with you. If you know this is a temporary home for you I'd make sure you can put the old switches back in and everything else you install, unless of course the buyer is willing to go the extra, can be removed. and reinstalled at the new home. A ;ott;e drywall compound and paint goes a long way to hiding what used to be there and it's probably something you'd do before you sell anyway. Some of my automation equipment has been with me through an apartment and two houses.

yeah, i did think about that...might go that route...

I did check and my current panel certainly is not able to be integrated.

in regards to the Elk, I was just reading through the Installation & Programming manual and if I went that route I want to make certain that I am correct that the RP Automation Program doesn't need to remain online...it creates the rules and saves them in the panel to run, correct? Also, anybody have any idea what the chances are the existing internal motion & smoke detectors will work with the Elk? Where can I find that out

 

[Steve]

in regards to the Elk, I was just reading through the Installation & Programming manual and if I went that route I want to make certain that I am correct that the RP Automation Program doesn't need to remain online...it creates the rules and saves them in the panel to run, correct? Also, anybody have any idea what the chances are the existing internal motion & smoke detectors will work with the Elk? Where can I find that out

You are correct, in fact you can't have RP connected or most drivers from software packages won't work. You only use RP when you are actively configuring or working with the panel.

If your devices (contact, motions, etc) are standard contact closure devices then yes they will work with the Elk. It's usually the proprietary wireless devices where you run into compatibility. You may have to remove or supplement any End Of Line (EOL) resistors if they even have any in there (at the device).

 

[tmbrown97]

I had similar concerns when I started my project - I don't want to be in my house more than about 3 years... but I went with the M1G anyway... When it really came down to it, I figured what I might do is buy an EZ8 system when I go to move out so I leave only the absolute most basic stuff (and only costs a few hundred $ tops, keypads should fit the same holes, etc)... but take all the goodies with me. The bulk of what I've spent so far is in expanders for lighting, extra zones, sprinkler control, etc. However - when I go to move out, I'll be taking the UPB and probably the M1G (unless there's something way better) with me along with all the accessories and leaving only a basic functioning alarm system that looks no different than what they saw when they walked the house with the realtor. May cost a couple more bucks than an even more basic system, but I'm hoping to be able to use the same keypads so I don't even have to patch holes or anything - and can still have everything nicely flush mounted for now. They won't know there's fewer rules and no voice and no ethernet - but that kind of stuff usually scares a potential buyer anyway unless they're tech-friendly.

As far as smokes and motions - the elk should work with any of them really - they're pretty standard from what I can see... Smokes - I've read that any 4-wire will work; but only specific 2-wire ones are compatible. Those should be listed in the manual, but if you have trouble one of us can list off the specific GE models that are compatible. I just don't have a manual handy.

As far as the software - no, you only need to connect long enough to transmit changes. You can even work off-line, make your changes, then connect and synchronize everything. That's my big selling point - I'd rather not have a PC dedicated to my system - I'm more of a purist. I want my alarm and basic automation to be flawless - always on, never touched except when working on something specific to that. Same reason I use a Tivo for my shows - I don't want it to ever not work as expected. PC's are great for add-on fun stuff, but they always get corrupted, crashed hard-drives, powered off because of power outage, etc... That's a matter many people here are divided on - just depends on where the priorities on in your mind.

I want to know that the back-door sounds will always sound - I don't want to miss it because the PC is frozen and not hear that my 2-yr old nephew snuck out and is now by the pool - and I don't want to come home to a dark porch because some software glitch caused the lights to not come on... or that the doorbell isn't working because of some glitch... And, I don't want to spend a whole lot of time on all this... I could go on for a while.

 

[tmbrown97]

Steve got in there while I was being long-winded...

As far as the EOL resistors... very true - if there were any used, they'd need to be checked to make sure they're the right resistance - but I never hear of them on simple home alarm systems - and the lazy installers that do use them only do so on specific zones, and usually in the panel. Easy to check for a a simple volt-meter should tell you, and the elk will come with plenty.

 

[irish]

does anybody use the Caddx or ITI wireless transmitters as part of their Elk system? I'm thinking it would be a better way to expanding the sensing capabilities of the system rather than using z-wave or insteon or whatever sensors. Then only use insteon/z-wave for lighting control instead of sensing. Would this be a more or less reliable way of designing the system?

hey rupp, back to the speaker question...would the ELK-SP12F work for the announcements? Seems like I could easily replace an outlet with one of those in key locations.

 

[Steve]

does anybody use the Caddx or ITI wireless transmitters as part of their Elk system? I'm thinking it would be a better way to expanding the sensing capabilities of the system rather than using z-wave or insteon or whatever sensors. Then only use insteon/z-wave for lighting control instead of sensing. Would this be a more or less reliable way of designing the system?

It really depends on your goals. In general a wireless PIR (motion) is really better suited for security, not HA. Thats because they only trip every few minutes to conserve battery. If you want something for HA that you want to see trip many times a minutes possibly, then you want a hardwired sensor. I use the Elk receiver with Caddx transmitters. Regular sensors will transmit multiple times/always, just not the PIR. I use some contacts for security, water sensing and even one on the mailbox which lets me know when mail is delivered.

 

[tmbrown97]

The one consideration with Wireless is the cost - if you have a place where it's easy enough to run wires, it may be more cost effective... as paying $3 for a contact sensor is better than paying $50 - but you can't beat the convenience of wireless either.

And the SP12F is great for voice announcements - that's all I use in my home, so I could put them throughout the house for more balanced volume. They're also designed so you can remove the speaker from the housing and use that speaker behind the keypad of the KP2 since it doesn't have its own speakers. They're a higher resistance (32Ohm) so you can run more of them without worrying about dropping below the 4Ohm minimum on the panel. I ran them behind each keypad, then in a couple of dead areas and the garage.

 

[123]

-->QUOTE(Todd B @ Sep 11 2008, 01:43 AM) [post="96206"][/post]
...SP12F ... that's all I use in my home, so I could put them throughout the house for more balanced volume. ...[/quote]

How many speakers do you have in place?

I have two SP12F's (modified them slightly to fit behind KP1 keypads) and one ELK-74. I plan to add three more speakers (1 SP12F and 2 ELK-74). Did you, or anyone else, find that the volume diminishes as you add more speakers? Is there a cutoff point where an amp is needed?


PS
All speakers are arranged in appropriate serial and parallel configurations to ensure the total impedance remains above 4 ohms.

 

[tmbrown97]

How many speakers do you have in place?

I have two SP12F's (modified them slightly to fit behind KP1 keypads) and one ELK-74. I plan to add three more speakers (1 SP12F and 2 ELK-74). Did you, or anyone else, find that the volume diminishes as you add more speakers? Is there a cutoff point where an amp is needed?


PS
All speakers are arranged in appropriate serial and parallel configurations to ensure the total impedance remains above 4 ohms.

Wow - I typed up a decent response at the office yesterday but it doesn't look like I saved it...

I tested with both just 1 and with up to 6. With the SP12's they're 32 Ohms, so you can connect up to 8 in parallel before you worry about ohms dropping too low. When I was testing, I didn't pay too much attention to volume though - I intentionally use the little SP12's so I can have more throughout the house - I was trying to avoid loud-spots, and I keep the volume decently low. Plus that lets you throw one in the garage and maybe even one out-side with cut-off switches so you know when the doorbell rings or other alerts from outside the house. We have enough in the house that any alerts that go off, like fire, etc - will be heard... It may not get loud enough for the siren to be a true deterrent - I don't know though, I haven't tried - but I don't care too much... A couple of well-placed screamers make it uncomfortable enough being in the house.

unfortunately, without testing the specific scenario, I couldn't say for sure what would happen when you use the combination of the different speakers. The 73's are 8ohms and higher wattage, so I would imagine that if you put them and the SP12's on the same circuit, the SP12's would be louder making it kinda backwards. If it were me wiring it up, I'd probably bite the bullet and spend the extra $40 for the little elk 800 amplifier. Then you can put the bigger 73's (the 74 is a siren only, so I assume it's the 73 speaker you were talking about) on the on-board 24-watt amplifier, then run the smaller SP12's on the Elk 800 10-watt amplifier. This way you can adjust the volume for each set to exactly where you want it too.

Also I'd try to avoid odd-numbers of the 73's - an even 2 or 4 makes it much easier to balance out the right resistance and volume level. SP12's you can add as many as you want (maybe another sp12 instead?).

 

[123]

Yes, you're right; 73 not 74.

At the moment I have two SP12F's in parallel with one 73 (total impedance = 5.33 ohms)

I was thinking of putting one 73 per floor plus another in the garage. The two in the house will be in parallel (8 ohms each so that makes 4 ohms)plus the third in serial gives me (4 + 8 = 12 ohms). Then there'll be a total of three SP12F's (one behind each keypad) in parallel (32 ohms each so that makes 10.67 ohms). The set of SP12F's (10.67 ohms) will be placed in series with the set of 73's (4 ohms) so that gives a total impedance of 14.67 ohms.

Naturally, this arrangement will cause some speakers to sound louder than others (4 ohms + 8 ohms + 10.67 ohms). Plus it may not sound as loud as what I have now (14.67 vs 5.33 ohms). Has anyone gone through a similar exercise of speaker expansion?

 

[tmbrown97]

Naturally, this arrangement will cause some speakers to sound louder than others (4 ohms + 8 ohms + 10.67 ohms). Plus it may not sound as loud as what I have now (14.67 vs 5.33 ohms). Has anyone gone through a similar exercise of speaker expansion?

Man - this one is kinda messing with my head... I wish I had the parts to test this one easily and get a better answer... But I know something isn't right about those calculations (depending on how you wire it). I can figure resistance values but I can't really anticipate the volume differences. And for me, the short answer is that I'd use the Elk 800 to give me two separate channels I could adjust the volume on independently and get them where I want them...

The trick on this one is going to be how you wire it. Lets say you parallel the 3 sp12's in - that'll give you 10.67 ohms. Now you want to add the 73's in - you'll either make a leg that's all three speakers with 2 in series and one parallel - that'll give you 5.33 ohms - parallel that leg in with the sp12's and you have 3.55 ohms - too low.

Now - you could parallel each of the sp12's and series all the 73's - the leg of the 73's would equal 24 ohms, then in parallel with the sp12's that would be 7.38 ohms.

You could also series each of the SP12's resulting in 96 ohms in one leg, then make another leg that's 2 73's in series with one in parallel... that would result in 5.05 ohms. I really want to test this, but I believe that would give you the most power to the 2 73's, with a little less volume to the 3rd one (garage), and then balance out the SP12's with even less volume... but I could be dead-backwards on that one.

I would imagine the goal would be to keep the sp12's at the same volume - and at least the 2 floors at the same volume - you may not care as much about the garage's 73... I even considered using an impedance matching volume control on certain speakers in my own home (like the garage) but I don't know enough about those without doing more research to know the effects...

A lot of rambling thoughts here... When do you want to accomplish this? I need to order more parts for my system, and I'm almost curious enough to spend the $20 and get 2 more 73's just to play with this...

 

[Ranger Digital]

I have the same switch setup for my bathroom fan, except it's 3 switches in the space of a single gang box....1 for fan, and 2 switches above it for light and night-light.

I don't believe there is an HA controllable switch that will fit into that area because I'm PRETTY sure that if you remove the cover plate, you'll see that those 2 switches are on a single device. So you wouldn't be able to replace just one of them.

What I plan to do is to pullout the switches, remove the gang box and add a gang to it, and then move that fan switch to it's own controllable relay switch that way. So in your case, you'd remove the 2-gang box there and put in a 3-gang box, with 2 normal switches and 1 controllable switch. Unless there's some reason you can't put a 3-gang box there....

Beez, in your case since you are using ALC, why dont you just put a quad switch and run those back to dimmer/relays located elsewhere? that way you can just use a single gang in that location.

 

[123]

.. When do you want to accomplish this? ...

I'm in no rush. I've also considered omitting the SP12F behind the keypad in the bedroom. I don't want to hear all of the Chime announcements ("Garage Door is Open") when I'm trying to catch extra Z's on a Saturday morning. A single '73 out in the hallway, outside the bedroom, may be all that's needed to hear alarms and (muffled) Chimes. Or maybe I'll include it and set Chimes on a schedule ... disable them on weekend mornings.

 

[irish]

Ok, I'm back again...

I have a lot of long term plans, but a lot of it will need to be on hold for a while. Of primary importance is I need to come up with a basic, reliable, and cost effective way to meet at least the following refined criteria:

24 hours a day
1) Sense motion outside surrounding my house. 4 Motion Sensors
2) Audio alert inside the house of the motion outside. 2 generic sounders/chimes

At Sundown
3) At dusk activate outside lighting (some to be on until a set time say llpm and some to stay on until dawn)

Between Sundown and Sunrise when motion is sensed
4) Activate outdoor floodlights for an adjustable period of time
5) Activate indoor lighting (lamps) for an adjustable period of time

It seems like I should be able to do most of that fairly simply (hopefully without needing an expensive controller). I was looking at two X-10 dual floodlights, plus two EagleEyes, plus two X-10 chimes, plus 4 or so x-10 lamp modules. The problem seems to be that the motion detector on the floodlights doesn't work independently of the lights. Either have it sense motion and active everything only at night or your floodlights will be coming on during the day with motion. It doesn't seem like you can use the motion detector independently of the floodlights which seems silly.

I'm really hoping to get this basic stuff done for less than $300. Is this at all possible?