Sump Pump Monitoring

[wuench]

I am looking to replace my current sump pump with a battery backed up solution. Since my sump pump is in a closet in a finished basement, I would really like to find intelligent ways to monitor it via my ElkM1. All the solutions I have looked at have built in monitoring but no way to supervise their status externally. Some have 12V connections or LEDs/Alarms for indicators that might be tapped, but I am no electronics guy so unless it is some splicing of wires I am not very confident in doing it (i.e. no soldering).

I already have a bucket sensor to monitor water levels, so that is not my concern, things I would like an indicator for are:

• Backup sump running
• Battery issues (low battery, bad battery, etc) for a deep cycle 24M/27M AGM battery

 

[sic0048]

I can think of two possible options:
Option #1
Could you get a regular computer type battery backup and then monitor it from a computer. Most have a serial connection that allows the computer to monitor things like power status, battery level, etc.

I know this type of information should be available via SNMP, but I am not sure if there is currently any ELK compatibility with SNMP. I know I could monitor something like that with CQC, but I'm not sure about ELK alone.

Option #2
I think it would be easy to monitor the 110v power output using a simple relay. Something that stays closed while energized, but fails open when power is lost. Place it first in line with the main power outlet, then the power backup and then the sump pump. That way the relay would change status when main power is lost.

You might also be able to get a power sensing relay that you can set the trip point for and use it as a second relay in between the backup power and the sump pump. While the amperage is normal you could assume it is running on main power or a full battery. When running on battery power I would think the amperage and/or voltage would slowly drop as the battery is expended. So if you could set the amperage level that would trigger the relay, then you could set it at some point below normal to indicate the battery has dropped to the set level.

I'm just thinking out loud here, so these solutions might not really work. But it is what I thought of off the top of my head. I hope it helps.

 

[tmbrown97]

I agree with a current-sensing relay; you can sense when the pump is running; except the active monitoring isn't that great... you'd have to run a rule every second and have it see if the pump is running; if so, increment a counter; if not, don't... I might prefer something other than the elk to actually monitor.

As for the monitoring of the battery, I'd probably look at a battery that has a charge controller that has some trigger outputs, such as low voltage, or charging problem and wire them into a zone on the M1.

Even the ones you mention with 12V connections for alarms, etc - can be hooked into 12V relays and directly wired into zones on the M1.

 

[JimS]

There are posts about monitoring LEDs without connection - putting a phototransistor or photocell over the LED. Probably would require minimum amounts of soldering but doesn't require connection to the LEDs and potential voiding of warranty.

Current and voltage sensing would give more detail for battery monitoring. But would cost a little more.

I see you are in my area. Solder is my preferred programming language. I might be able to help you out with the hardware if you are interested.

 

[BraveSirRobbin]

http://www.crmagnetics.com/Products/CR-4395-P7.aspx

 

[apostolakisl]

I am looking to replace my current sump pump with a battery backed up solution. Since my sump pump is in a closet in a finished basement, I would really like to find intelligent ways to monitor it via my ElkM1. All the solutions I have looked at have built in monitoring but no way to supervise their status externally. Some have 12V connections or LEDs/Alarms for indicators that might be tapped, but I am no electronics guy so unless it is some splicing of wires I am not very confident in doing it (i.e. no soldering).

I already have a bucket sensor to monitor water levels, so that is not my concern, things I would like an indicator for are:

• Backup sump running
• Battery issues (low battery, bad battery, etc) for a deep cycle 24M/27M AGM battery

If you really want to know if your backup sump is running, you would want to actually know that water is flowing. Just because electricity is going to it, doesn't mean it is working. A flow meter on the outbound line would be most accurate but a little pricey. A simple solution would be to put a nipple on your outbound line and put a small cheap pressure transducer on it. Digikey sells models from Freescale for about $10. I have used these with CAI webcontrol boards and they work great. You could also wire them directly into an analog zone on the Elk. I used 5v models with the CAI, but a 12v model would be needed on Elk without additional tinkering.

Battery voltage could be monitored similarly. You can't just hook a battery up to an Elk zone, but I am sure there is a way to do this. A variable resistor that responds to voltage would basically be what you want. If you really wanted to be fancy, you could use an Elk relay to periodically do a load test on the battery.

EDIT: They don't make a 12v model. So for $6 get this and a 5v model. http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-DC-Converter-Regulator-12V-Step-down-5V-3A-Power-Supply-Module-Waterproof-/250976056745?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a6f56b5a9 and this http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/MPX4250GP/MPX4250GP-ND/1168389

 

[wuench]

Thanks. A lot of good ideas... The backup pumps are typically 12V so I guess a simple 12V relay might work there? The current sensor might be good for the main pump. I might go ahead and get that anyway, or maybe it's time to look into brultech etc. Measuring flow is a good idea too, you would think there would be some sort of "flapper" sensor. I have to research that a little more.

Of the units I looked at, the LEDs on the battery chargers flash different colors patterns for different errors. So tapping them may be a little more difficult than I first thought. Has anyone seen any smart/supervised battery chargers with relay outputs? All the ones I have found are more for security like the ELK P212S, but it says 12AH battery max. and these sump batteries are in the 90AH range.

 

[ecborgoyn]

Another thought is to monitor the float-switch (and power to the pump). Measure the time from the switch/pump ON to OFF. You can safely (I claim) assume that water is flowing if the pump runs for a time period and the water level in the sump goes down. True that this scheme does NOT detect that the discharge pipe from the pump is broken/disconnected and pumping water somewhere incorrectly.

 

[apostolakisl]

You can also use the same type of pressure transducer but the 1.45psi variant and put that down in the bottom of the well for the sump and get a reading which would indicate the depth of water. 1.45 psi is something like 45 inches of water. So if the transducer was reading 2.5v, you would know you had rougly 22 inches of water depth.

I have used those pressure transducers for measuring water levels and they are accurate to about 1/10th of an inch or less. On the Elk, however, you only get to see one decimal point of accuracy which would mean you could tell the water level to about 1 inch resolution. Take a pcv pipe, put a cap on the one end and put a nipple pointing into the pipe, then drop the pipe into the well leaving the top end above the water you would get the reading. I use vacuum hose from the auto part store to hook these up. 1/8 in brass nipple from Lowe's and a tap to thread the pvc. Screw the nipple in with a little teflon tape. The transducer needs to go as close to the bottom as possible since it is measuring the height of the water above it.

 

[drozwood90]

http://forums.homeseer.com/showthread.php?t=143266&highlight=sump+pump+monitor

That's what I've modeled my stuff after. Just have to finish bringing the cat5 from one end of the basement to the other by the server.

--Dan