Switch Ideas UPB

[Desert_AIP]

Assumption here - I am told the fireplace is a standard decora, and not an LV/relay type thing - though I need to doublecheck w/ the electrician after New Years.

My fireplace in my last house used two standard wall switches, one was LV wirirng from the switch to the FP control, the other was 120V for the fan.
The standard switch is just a contact device. There isn't a relay in the wall, but the switch is acting like the contacts of a manually operated relay.
The LV control operated the solenoid valve and the other gizmos inside the fireplace to turn it on.
If you have LV control you can't just wire in a 120V UPB switch, you have to isolate the HV/LV through a relay.
So I'd ask about the control voltage, signal path of the fireplace.

Are these statements relatively true with these SA switches - Every Load essentially needs a rocker somewhere? Max 2 loads to a switch, and all the other extra rockers and buttons are scene/controller based?

By load, I assume you are talking about a group of lights, not single fixtures.
With the exception of the 2240, the SA switches can only control a single load per switch.
There's only one dimmer and set of control circuitry inside the 240 and 1140.
That load can be a combination of fixtures up to 600-900W (depending on ganging).

On a 240, all of the rockers or buttons, in whatever combination, are essentialy link transmitters only.
You set the local load to respond to one of the links transmitted.
So the rocker "appears" to have local control, like an 1140, but it is using local links to operate the load.

I would say every load needs a receiver, not necessarily a rocker.
So a 240, 1140, lamp module, appliance module or wired in dimming or relay module is needed for each load.
Some of those loads can be setup to respond only to UPB links over the powerline, with no dedicated rocker.
Like my Master Shower Fan.
However, I would recommend having rockers (on 1140s) for as many loads as possible for the reasons we've stated above.
This can create a wall space issue by having a huge bank of switches. Which would be a case for using a scene controller and wied in modules or virtual 3 way circuits.


I'm curious about your diagram.
Why are the 3 loads separated into 3 loads?
What are the individual fixture wattages?
I assume a standard 65W PAR30.
So 9 of those is 585W, which can be controlled by a single SA switch.
So I was wondering if there is an electrical reason for separating the loads like that.
Is there an asthetic purpose to have the 3 banks of lights?
Do you anticipate only turning on one set or using them all on together all the time?

Trying to picture myslef sitting in and using the room on a daily basis, of course I don;t know what your furniture layout is so I'm making gross assumptions.
It looks to me like you may use load 1, by the TV, by itself, and loads 2 and 3, over the sitting area, together.
Or 1 and 2 combined and 3 by itself.

 

[rismoney]

So I'd ask about the control voltage, signal path of the fireplace.

I will definitely follow-up after New Years with the specifics on this topic.

By load, I assume you are talking about a group of lights, not single fixtures.
With the exception of the 2240, the SA switches can only control a single load per switch.
There's only one dimmer and set of control circuitry inside the 240 and 1140.
That load can be a combination of fixtures up to 600-900W (depending on ganging).

On a 240, all of the rockers or buttons, in whatever combination, are essentialy link transmitters only.
You set the local load to respond to one of the links transmitted.
So the rocker "appears" to have local control, like an 1140, but it is using local links to operate the load.

I would say every load needs a receiver, not necessarily a rocker.
So a 240, 1140, lamp module, appliance module or wired in dimming or relay module is needed for each load.
Some of those loads can be setup to respond only to UPB links over the powerline, with no dedicated rocker.
Like my Master Shower Fan.

Is this because the Shower Fan is actually plugged into a wire-in module?

However, I would recommend having rockers (on 1140s) for as many loads as possible for the reasons we've stated above.
This can create a wall space issue by having a huge bank of switches. Which would be a case for using a scene controller and wied in modules or virtual 3 way circuits.

This makes sense.

In the kids bedrooms I was proposing 4 recessed hi-hat lights and a center fixture. If I understand this correctly, if I want to operate the center fixture independently from the recessed hi-hats from a switch control perspective, I would need two 1140s or maybe ideally a 2240 (to halve the wall worts).

I'm curious about your diagram.
Why are the 3 loads separated into 3 loads?
What are the individual fixture wattages?
I assume a standard 65W PAR30.
So 9 of those is 585W, which can be controlled by a single SA switch.
So I was wondering if there is an electrical reason for separating the loads like that.
Is there an asthetic purpose to have the 3 banks of lights?
Do you anticipate only turning on one set or using them all on together all the time?

Trying to picture myslef sitting in and using the room on a daily basis, of course I don;t know what your furniture layout is so I'm making gross assumptions.
It looks to me like you may use load 1, by the TV, by itself, and loads 2 and 3, over the sitting area, together.
Or 1 and 2 combined and 3 by itself.

Yes they are 65W PAR 30 6" recessed hi-hats. I think I screwed up- the 1140 doesn't have a dual short rocker.
The 2240 will probably work. The 240s I think I want to minimize.
The aesthetic for the 3 banks...In this scenario I envisioned multiple tiered dimming scenes. For example for watching TV, dimmest in Load 1 say 25%, Load 2 50% Load 3 75%. Also I have a large extended family where I might leverage load 3 for extended informal dining situations. Reading on the couch might yield a brightest load 2, with dimmer 1s and 3s. The Windows on either sided of the TV face are waterfront facing, so I wanted some potential glare reduction options.

I believe the Mrs has some plan for sectional seating in maybe a U or L straddling between the mid/back of Load 1 and Load 3 but that is, as you might expect, subject to change at a moments notice

I just found the userguides on simply-automated's site. I thought the data sheets were all there were. Awesome!

On a side note, if the OmniPro controller were to die, would the 240s all cease to work while the 1140s would still control local load?

Rismoney

 

[tmbrown97]

On a side note, if the OmniPro controller were to die, would the 240s all cease to work while the 1140s would still control local load?

No not at all... everything the switches need to know to talk to each other is in the specific switches. The controller generally just handles automation and scheduling (like lights on at dawn, or turning on other lights based on a door opening).

Basically speaking - each switch learns what to listen for, and what to transmit when you press a button. This means you program it to do XXX if it sees link XXX. If you press XXX, transmit and do XXXX.

When it sends a link, it has no idea what'll respond - but each individual light switch knows that if it sees link XXX, it needs to go do whatever it's configured to do.

No central controller needed for day to day operation - and if you remove a switch, it doesn't hurt anything other than that switch.

 

[Desert_AIP]

Is this because the Shower Fan is actually plugged into a wire-in module?

Yes.
I had to split out the fan to separate it from the light.
Since this is a retrofit I just added a box in the attic for a wired in relay module to control the fan.
The only way to control it is through links. In this application it works for what I need it to do.

In the kids bedrooms I was proposing 4 recessed hi-hat lights and a center fixture. If I understand this correctly, if I want to operate the center fixture independently from the recessed hi-hats from a switch control perspective, I would need two 1140s or maybe ideally a 2240 (to halve the wall worts).

You may want to do some more research on the 2240s. I have no personal experience with them, but I have read several threads on this site talking about some issues with trying to control the two loads simultaneously and only one message getting through, negative on the WAF.
It makes sense since a 2240 is like two tandem 240s, they both have no local control of the load.

Yes they are 65W PAR 30 6" recessed hi-hats. I think I screwed up- the 1140 doesn't have a dual short rocker.
The 2240 will probably work. The 240s I think I want to minimize.
The aesthetic for the 3 banks...In this scenario I envisioned multiple tiered dimming scenes. For example for watching TV, dimmest in Load 1 say 25%, Load 2 50% Load 3 75%. Also I have a large extended family where I might leverage load 3 for extended informal dining situations. Reading on the couch might yield a brightest load 2, with dimmer 1s and 3s. The Windows on either sided of the TV face are waterfront facing, so I wanted some potential glare reduction options.

I believe the Mrs has some plan for sectional seating in maybe a U or L straddling between the mid/back of Load 1 and Load 3 but that is, as you might expect, subject to change at a moments notice

Sounds like you have given it some thought. Sounds like reason enough to keep the loads split.
How you use the room and your lifestyle integration of all these products is the whole point of them.
Splitting the loads will retain the maximum flexibility. If you find you are using two loads together all the time, it's easy to program them to respond to the same links. Having them on separate dimmers can still set the levels of each bank independently.

So I see 4 lighting loads and potentially two fireplace loads, fireplace on/off and fan, in the room.
If you want to retain central control to that single area, and want to limit the number of wall switches to a 3 gang space, you are probably looking at using mostly 240s in that location and maybe wired in modules for the fireplace.



As Work2Play stated, the UPB lighting system is a standalone system.
It operates independently of any controller. The switches are individually programmed their interaction is completely customizeable.
That's why it pays to sit down and figure out how you want to use them in an integrated fashion.
The controllers like the Omni add to the UPB functionality by integrating with security and adding timed and event driven commands.

 

[rismoney]

It makes sense since a 2240 is like two tandem 240s, they both have no local control of the load.

This doc seems to imply 2 direct load controls... Am I not confusing direct load, with local control?

http://www.simply-automated.com/documents/452-0022-0101RevC_US22-40_UserGuide_090224.pdf

 

[tmbrown97]

It'll control 2 loads just fine as lon as they're within spec. What is annoying is that, even if you hit both rockers at once, both lights won't operate. You have to pause between presses. Also, you can only address the first load by the switch ID when using control hardware/software... The second has to be addressed by a link no matter what, and will struggle with updating status correctly. Check out mustangcoupe's review for info on it (may not have all details though) or the doc I PM'd you.

 

[Desert_AIP]

This doc seems to imply 2 direct load controls... Am I not confusing direct load, with local control?

http://www.simply-automated.com/documents/452-0022-0101RevC_US22-40_UserGuide_090224.pdf

By direct control I meant local control, like the 1140.
The rocker controls the load independent of any UPB commands sent on the powerline.

The 2240 operates like the 240, through links only.
The rocker(s) on the front can only transmit links.
You must use a local link to control the load(s) attached the device.