Haiku The new product
- Thread starter lupinglade
- Start date
mavromatis
Member
@heffneil, just saw this, not sure if you are already part of the beta (closed now) -- I haven't been checking this forum -- Myro:Home Helper is code complete (still internally testing and optimizing) and I'm now working on the finishing touches of Myro:Home iOS app -- lots of new iOS 10+ features throughout.
Hope to have it ready for all to checkout soon -- just a fair warning, it will be a monthly or yearly subscription (14-day free trial) model that you can choose from. Free version is very limited. This model is to keep development going. A one-and-done model goes the way of Haiku/Space. No developer incentive -- I've put 1000's man hours into this app/frameworks so far, will never make it all back, but at least I can have an incentive to keep it going... this app used daily makes any reasonable subscription price worth it.
Would love to hear what you think a fair subscription price is -- create a support ticket at myrocontrol.com/support and let me know.
Myro:Home Helper notable features (runs on a MacOS machine):
- Expose HAI units/zones/thermostats/smoke/etc as Apple HomeKit Accessories. Can be controlled via Siri shortcuts, Home app, Siri, etc.
- Actionable push notifications
- Data Logging of objects/events to CSV (for further analysis/ML)
- Weather Advisory
- Energy Cost monitoring/sync with TED 5000.
Here is a sneak peek of the Myro:Home iOS app -- subject to change for the better without notice:
Hope to have it ready for all to checkout soon -- just a fair warning, it will be a monthly or yearly subscription (14-day free trial) model that you can choose from. Free version is very limited. This model is to keep development going. A one-and-done model goes the way of Haiku/Space. No developer incentive -- I've put 1000's man hours into this app/frameworks so far, will never make it all back, but at least I can have an incentive to keep it going... this app used daily makes any reasonable subscription price worth it.
Would love to hear what you think a fair subscription price is -- create a support ticket at myrocontrol.com/support and let me know.
Myro:Home Helper notable features (runs on a MacOS machine):
- Expose HAI units/zones/thermostats/smoke/etc as Apple HomeKit Accessories. Can be controlled via Siri shortcuts, Home app, Siri, etc.
- Actionable push notifications
- Data Logging of objects/events to CSV (for further analysis/ML)
- Weather Advisory
- Energy Cost monitoring/sync with TED 5000.
Here is a sneak peek of the Myro:Home iOS app -- subject to change for the better without notice:
Anthony A.
Active Member
@mavromatis The interface looks great. I get what you are saying about the subscription cost to keep you motivated to fix bugs, etc. but to be honest I really dont think that helps in motivation. It simply becomes an income stream for you and no real guarantee for the end user that you will be around in a year from now. Not saying you wont, because I have followed your work and know you have been doing myro home for many years but I believe the end user will feel more comfortable with a one time purchase. This whole subscription based Microsoft/Adobe thing is quite irritating and really just a cash grab. I speak for myself, but I would prefer a piece of software that you buy outright and it just works. If you ever disappear like Haiku did, atleast the app will still function 95% (as mine is).
I wouldn't mind some 'life time" membership either. How many years will this product last until you charge for an upgrade. This is how most people are changing in the App Model and i think it works. If its $10 a month and its good for 2 years pay $240 and be done with it but there isn't much incentive to upgrade with the "new" features. Otherwise I think if Mavormatis is gonna give up hes just gonna unlock them all before he stops?
I’ll add my comments here. While I agree that I generally don’t like the subscription model and also see it as a blatant profit booster for the publishing company, I think we have to keep in mind the size of the user base for this app. He’s spending a lot of time writing it, and undoubtedly will spend time supporting it, so there has to be enough revenue to justify his effort. I too would prefer a one-time purchase price, but with a really small potential market, that would entail either a very high purchase price or the ability to sell future versions as upgrades. Does the App Store even support the notion of paid upgrades?Anthony A. said:
Does anyone on this forum have any idea of the total potential market size for this new app? I don’t get the sense that the OmniPro community is a thriving one anymore. It feels like Leviton has decided to let the product line slowly die off, so short of people like Mavromatis coming out with new products, it doesn’t seem like we’re going to see any major updates for our systems. To that end, I really want to make sure there’s an incentive for third party developers to keep trying to support our systems.
If you had a choice between a one time $150 or $200 purchase vs the annual subscription, would you even consider the one-time option at that price level? I’m just asking hypothetically to try to generate some feedback for Mavromatis.
I tell you the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow would be Leviton buying the product. I still can't figure out why they didn't buy Haiku. The only deduction I can make is that they do not want to invest anything in the product unfortunately. I really love my Omnipro and I have several throughout my properties. I chatted with Mavromatis and there isn't anything better. I agree and i've been looking for something a bit more modern. If rumors hold true they are going to replace the omni in the next 3 years which is a glimmer of hope. I think the user base is super small unfortunately. I went to try to buy the code for Haiku and I went to try to find contractors who could write something. For me it wasn't worth the investment and they (the contractors) suggested something less product specific like OpenHAB but I just don't have the patience for that....
This is the next great hope honestly and I am excited...
This is the next great hope honestly and I am excited...
I don't think a subscription plan is the way to go either, but certainly developers should be rewarded for their work. Sell the product with 90 days of support, then sell yearly support if you will provide that support. Then you can also sell upgrades when major versions come out. If you chose to do both, give the paid support people free upgrades if they have been paying all along.
One thing that's getting lost is you also have to factor in a Mac running 24/7. I could understand a subscription model maybe if it was entirely cloud based. But the system reliability is entirely on you, and then your paying for the monthly right to use the software. Personally I think more copies
would be sold as a one time cost. But if that cost is extremely high or can't be shared with family members on the same system that creates problem too.
I think theirs a fine balance and mavromatis could very well insult the entire community if it does look like a money grab or taking advantage of what's left of the community. So I hope he will give considerable thought into a fair price model. Many of us bought into the system because it's not control4 or savant pricing.
would be sold as a one time cost. But if that cost is extremely high or can't be shared with family members on the same system that creates problem too.
I think theirs a fine balance and mavromatis could very well insult the entire community if it does look like a money grab or taking advantage of what's left of the community. So I hope he will give considerable thought into a fair price model. Many of us bought into the system because it's not control4 or savant pricing.
The big unknown is the number of people out there who would buy the product if the price is within the range they consider to be “fair”. Have any of you talked to the Haiku developer in the past to see how many total copies of the software got sold over its life? The fact that this thread is only generating comments from a very small number of people suggests that there just isn’t a large user community out there (unless there’s a better online forum for connecting with HAI users). If the community is quite small, I think it would be hard for Mavromatis to be accused of making a money grab at the subscription prices he’s suggesting. That’s not to say that people won’t feel the price is too high for them to justify buying it, but if there are only 100 people who buy his software, he’s certainly not going to pull in enough to justify the effort expended.Matt W said:
Yeah I mean here is the thing. We aren't dummies here we have to have some intelligence if we setup an Omni and wants a nice front end for it. Its very easy to see historically that selling the product one time (Haiku) just doesn't work. You can't afford to maintain it and keep things up to date. I and many of you may still rely on Haiku, I don't know what else you could be using otherwise. The big problem is that IOS upgrades are going to continue and there is going to be that one day when things just stop working. One some of my dedicated iPads I might not be too concerned about that but for my iPhone and Haiku which I use 10-20 times a day how will I operate my home? How will you? I am willing to pay because its that valuable. Im not going to use Snaplink - it just isn't good.
I don't know if any of you tried using OnControls (iRule) but that was the same exact problem. It didn't generate enough revenue and was pretty good to start with so the minuscule add-ons they offered to generate income just didn't work. They ended up selling to Kramer and sent out the end of life notification for I think 2019.
Guys this is a small community - too small - I for one am for supporting this product to no end as long as I own my home -which may not be much longer but the viability of this product will undoubtedly affect the choice I make when installing a new system.
If I were mavormatis I would try to sell the product to Leviton - or work with Worthington to distribute the product BUT Worthington has a lot invested in their Bitwise implementation but its just not as versatile as an app. Regardless I think we have to pay to play and when you weight the choices there just aren't any....
I don't know if any of you tried using OnControls (iRule) but that was the same exact problem. It didn't generate enough revenue and was pretty good to start with so the minuscule add-ons they offered to generate income just didn't work. They ended up selling to Kramer and sent out the end of life notification for I think 2019.
Guys this is a small community - too small - I for one am for supporting this product to no end as long as I own my home -which may not be much longer but the viability of this product will undoubtedly affect the choice I make when installing a new system.
If I were mavormatis I would try to sell the product to Leviton - or work with Worthington to distribute the product BUT Worthington has a lot invested in their Bitwise implementation but its just not as versatile as an app. Regardless I think we have to pay to play and when you weight the choices there just aren't any....
Everyone,
I have been communicating with mavormatis over the past 6 months regarding this product. I have also seen the product run as far as integrating to my OmniPro System and it is awesome. I am sure mavormatis would like to make money, but as others have said this group here is not big so he must recover development costs, but ongoing costs this and these are not cheap if it were everyone would have created something. Personally if this community wants something that is up to date and actually interfaces and works with HomeKit with ongoing upgrade we must get on this bandwagon. A matter of fact Apple has asked the development community to move to subscriptions based model as they move forward. One thing that surprises me so much is that we have so much money wrapped up in our Omini Systems, but the front end interfaces for this product actually STINKS to put it mildly. I will support Mavomatis in whatever way he goes to market I am actually with a one time fee plus on on-going subscription model or just a subscription model. Please let's get behind this spread the word and get as many individuals supporting him so that we can have an awesome front end interface.
I have been communicating with mavormatis over the past 6 months regarding this product. I have also seen the product run as far as integrating to my OmniPro System and it is awesome. I am sure mavormatis would like to make money, but as others have said this group here is not big so he must recover development costs, but ongoing costs this and these are not cheap if it were everyone would have created something. Personally if this community wants something that is up to date and actually interfaces and works with HomeKit with ongoing upgrade we must get on this bandwagon. A matter of fact Apple has asked the development community to move to subscriptions based model as they move forward. One thing that surprises me so much is that we have so much money wrapped up in our Omini Systems, but the front end interfaces for this product actually STINKS to put it mildly. I will support Mavomatis in whatever way he goes to market I am actually with a one time fee plus on on-going subscription model or just a subscription model. Please let's get behind this spread the word and get as many individuals supporting him so that we can have an awesome front end interface.
jmorris644
Active Member
I too would be willing to pay a monthly fee.kpstew said:
Powercat80
Member
We do you expect this product to be ready for prime time?
mavromatis
Member
Hey folks! Sorry I haven't been a part of this conversation as I've been heads down coding, trying to get all the MVP functionality ready for wider beta testing and just saw all this feedback. Lots of great progress, I added watch support as well. Hope to share with you all my work soon!
Warning, this is a bit lengthy...
First, I have read all your input and lots of valuable feedback on the pricing model. I agree and understand the pain points of subscription vs one-time paid as I'm a "customer" of these types of products myself. I'm being very thoughtful on finding a fair pricing model that is not considered a "money grab" but more of payment for helping keep development going. As others have mentioned, Apple's also suggesting subscriptions as a viable business model for developers. Funny, they disrupted the software business model where we used to pay $1,000 for Office or $2,599 for Adobe Creative Suite 6 Master Collection to now being subscription models.
A little background about myself, I'm a HAI supporter/customer myself and I still think it's one of the best platforms today. I've learned every detail about the protocol stack and it's abilities -- even shortcomings.
I've bought every version of Haiku ($50)/Helper ($25?) and Space ($45), H@ome, as well as HAI's Snaplink ($25) wishing it to be something more. I actually really liked Haiku and abandoned my initial iOS development of Myro:Home because Haiku already did all the work and was a great product. At $50, one-time -- I thought it was a bargain and it did what I wanted at the time.
I've had a version of Myro:Home running on my iPhone and Watch for years now in parallel to Haiku mostly as a hobby testing out features where Haiku left off due to the pivot to Space.
I applaud the developers of Haiku and Space for all their work and have given them near $120 for over 6 years of use. I personally would have given $50/yr if that would have helped keep them developing, that would have equaled $300 for 6 years or $.14 cents a day -- not bad for an app we use daily.
Is there a guarantee the app will continue to evolve and get updated? There typically is no guarantee with any software product we buy, but I can tell you that if there is user base of active subscribers there will be more incentive for the developers to do that because the business model relies on it. Hopefully, this will also create competition -- maybe others will come in and a subscription model allows you to switch easier as you don't feel like you are invested in a single app.
I've considered open sourcing the project but that doesn't seem to solve the problem because someone still needs to maintain the codebase, the Apple developer account ($99/yr) and manage the product and features as well as any 3rd party systems (e.g. push notification system, etc) require a registered business. Myro:Home isn't a simple SDK/library but a end-user product. My feeling is that the project would die as it's still too niche of a product. Also, privacy is a important element -- we're talking our homes, one of our most personal possessions. You want to be sure that there is a reputable company behind the product and that is the trust I'd want to establish with Myro Control's brand.
The inherent challenge with developing for iOS is that it needs to evolve at the rate of new OS/hardware versions Apple releases and that requires lots of time/work -- this is typically every year. When XCODE and SWIFT changes happen that requires a lot of work migrating/refining the code. When new features get added to the API's (screen resolutions, authentication, etc) those need to be implemented.
I expect any one-time price app purchase that I'd get 3 years of use -- so, if I can get 3 years of use (with no updates) that is great! Anything over 3 yrs is a bonus, given the rate of OS updates and changes (e.g. new OS causes incompatibilities, crashes, etc). So I could release a one time version with no updates and then release the next version as a new SKU but as a customer I'd hate that -- given that model one-time price would be under $150.00
I see a subscription model of say $48/yr prepaid or $5.49 monthly as a way to spread your payments of the software out, so instead of $150 one time, you provide a carrot to the developers to keep development going at the risk of losing them as a paid customer -- plus, you never really "own" the app in the AppStore because if the developer stops updating, Apple could kill the app due to system changes, for example 32bit vs 64bit compiled binary's. If you bought any apps that are 32bit, they don't run on 64bit OS's anymore.
Anyways, it's a bit premature to talk pricing until you folks actually get your hands on the app and see for yourself. Keep the healthy feedback coming -- I've thought about this long and hard and have asked many folks for thoughts on pricing. It's a really difficult topic because I'm doing this as a passion project but from past experiences once I release the first version to the store, it will turn from a hobby/passion into a "business", I will get feedback from users, ratings, features suggestions, bug reports, etc and that is not as fun and at my own pace anymore. It will become a priority which will take time away from my family and there has to be some reward/incentive to keep it going -- otherwise it will become less a priority.
I'd love to be able to hire a developer or two in the future but that won't happen if there isn't a strong business model. If you know any iOS developers that want to work full time for free let me know -- I have lots of work for them!
I better get back to work... feel free to contact me anytime to discuss -- visit myrocontrol.com for ways to do that.
Best,
Danny
Warning, this is a bit lengthy...
First, I have read all your input and lots of valuable feedback on the pricing model. I agree and understand the pain points of subscription vs one-time paid as I'm a "customer" of these types of products myself. I'm being very thoughtful on finding a fair pricing model that is not considered a "money grab" but more of payment for helping keep development going. As others have mentioned, Apple's also suggesting subscriptions as a viable business model for developers. Funny, they disrupted the software business model where we used to pay $1,000 for Office or $2,599 for Adobe Creative Suite 6 Master Collection to now being subscription models.
A little background about myself, I'm a HAI supporter/customer myself and I still think it's one of the best platforms today. I've learned every detail about the protocol stack and it's abilities -- even shortcomings.
I've bought every version of Haiku ($50)/Helper ($25?) and Space ($45), H@ome, as well as HAI's Snaplink ($25) wishing it to be something more. I actually really liked Haiku and abandoned my initial iOS development of Myro:Home because Haiku already did all the work and was a great product. At $50, one-time -- I thought it was a bargain and it did what I wanted at the time.
I've had a version of Myro:Home running on my iPhone and Watch for years now in parallel to Haiku mostly as a hobby testing out features where Haiku left off due to the pivot to Space.
I applaud the developers of Haiku and Space for all their work and have given them near $120 for over 6 years of use. I personally would have given $50/yr if that would have helped keep them developing, that would have equaled $300 for 6 years or $.14 cents a day -- not bad for an app we use daily.
Is there a guarantee the app will continue to evolve and get updated? There typically is no guarantee with any software product we buy, but I can tell you that if there is user base of active subscribers there will be more incentive for the developers to do that because the business model relies on it. Hopefully, this will also create competition -- maybe others will come in and a subscription model allows you to switch easier as you don't feel like you are invested in a single app.
I've considered open sourcing the project but that doesn't seem to solve the problem because someone still needs to maintain the codebase, the Apple developer account ($99/yr) and manage the product and features as well as any 3rd party systems (e.g. push notification system, etc) require a registered business. Myro:Home isn't a simple SDK/library but a end-user product. My feeling is that the project would die as it's still too niche of a product. Also, privacy is a important element -- we're talking our homes, one of our most personal possessions. You want to be sure that there is a reputable company behind the product and that is the trust I'd want to establish with Myro Control's brand.
The inherent challenge with developing for iOS is that it needs to evolve at the rate of new OS/hardware versions Apple releases and that requires lots of time/work -- this is typically every year. When XCODE and SWIFT changes happen that requires a lot of work migrating/refining the code. When new features get added to the API's (screen resolutions, authentication, etc) those need to be implemented.
I expect any one-time price app purchase that I'd get 3 years of use -- so, if I can get 3 years of use (with no updates) that is great! Anything over 3 yrs is a bonus, given the rate of OS updates and changes (e.g. new OS causes incompatibilities, crashes, etc). So I could release a one time version with no updates and then release the next version as a new SKU but as a customer I'd hate that -- given that model one-time price would be under $150.00
I see a subscription model of say $48/yr prepaid or $5.49 monthly as a way to spread your payments of the software out, so instead of $150 one time, you provide a carrot to the developers to keep development going at the risk of losing them as a paid customer -- plus, you never really "own" the app in the AppStore because if the developer stops updating, Apple could kill the app due to system changes, for example 32bit vs 64bit compiled binary's. If you bought any apps that are 32bit, they don't run on 64bit OS's anymore.
Anyways, it's a bit premature to talk pricing until you folks actually get your hands on the app and see for yourself. Keep the healthy feedback coming -- I've thought about this long and hard and have asked many folks for thoughts on pricing. It's a really difficult topic because I'm doing this as a passion project but from past experiences once I release the first version to the store, it will turn from a hobby/passion into a "business", I will get feedback from users, ratings, features suggestions, bug reports, etc and that is not as fun and at my own pace anymore. It will become a priority which will take time away from my family and there has to be some reward/incentive to keep it going -- otherwise it will become less a priority.
I'd love to be able to hire a developer or two in the future but that won't happen if there isn't a strong business model. If you know any iOS developers that want to work full time for free let me know -- I have lots of work for them!
I better get back to work... feel free to contact me anytime to discuss -- visit myrocontrol.com for ways to do that.
Best,
Danny
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