Thread Group Launches

[jdk972003]

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/thread-group-certification-program-osram,30542.html
 
Yet another protocol "to rule them all"!
 
It is nice that it is IP based and mesh in one product, but just when z-wave seems to be winning the retail market, here comes another player.

 

[Dean Roddey]

I imagine it's considerably more competent than Z-Wave, though I've honestly not delved into the details. Z-Wave was a 'just good enough to get to the market' type of deal, which has been expanded on somewhat since in order to try to fill in the holes. Hopefully the Thread folks were not so arrogant as to fail to learn from these earlier undertakings.

 

[jdk972003]

Agreed.
 
I will note that Zigbee operates based on the same IEEE 802.15.4 standard as Thread.  They just screwed themselves by allowing members to create brand specific sub categories hence they do not all work together.
 
One big issue I have is that the  IEEE 802.15.4 standard operates in the 2.4 ghz range I thought.  That is a crowded range in my house (wireless, microwaves, etc).
 
Great article here to read about IEEE 802.15.4 vs zigbee
http://electronicdesign.com/what-s-difference-between/what-s-difference-between-ieee-802154-and-zigbee-wireless

 

[Dean Roddey]

It they hadn't allowed for various 'profiles', probably a lot of the early adopters of the technology wouldn't have used it, since those folks were looking for proprietary technology, or proprietarizable technology. That might have ending up with it dying on the vine early in the process. Hard to say.

 

[ddennerline]

I don’t think this protocol is going to be any better than Z-Wave – especially with new Z-Wave+. Thread speed is only 60% better than Z-Wave+ ( 250 vs 100Kbs).
 
Threads “commissioning” system is going to be a pain to enroll devices because every device uses encryption. Therefore some type of key management/enrollment is requirement. I doubt you will be able to do a simple proximity “inclusion”. You will most likely have to enter some security key. If device doesn’t join the network, then trying to track down the failure will be difficult due the complex join interchange.
http://threadgroup.org/Portals/0/documents/whitepapers/Thread%20Commissioning%20white%20paper_v2_public.pdf
 
IMHO, the real reason this group was created was to avoid being tied to a single vendor – along with strong preference for using IP protocol.
 
I don’t know why people keep saying Z-Wave sucks as compared to Zigbee, etc…  Z-Wave uses a lower frequency which improves distance. http://electronicdesign.com/communications/what-s-difference-between-zigbee-and-z-wave. In addition, Z-Wave has benefit of many years of development.
http://aeotec.com/z-wave-500-series-module-chip

 

[NeverDie]

When you consider that Thread got started in July 2014, they've come a long way very quickly. I''m curious as to whether they have found a good light switch manufacturer to join their group or whether they plan to go with smart bulbs instead.  Osram joining their board might suggest the latter.
 
I'm also curious as to whether the hardware will be of use to IoT hobbyists or whether it will be essentially a closed system like z-wave has been. 

 

[vc1234]

I don’t know why people keep saying Z-Wave sucks as compared to Zigbee, etc…  Z-Wave uses a lower frequency which improves distance. http://electronicdesign.com/communications/what-s-difference-between-zigbee-and-z-wave. In addition, Z-Wave has benefit of many years of development.
http://aeotec.com/z-wave-500-series-module-chip

 
I am also mystified by the that.  They are both pretty horrible for similar reasons, with zigbee being even worse due to inferior 2.4Ghz emw propagation characteristics in comparizon to zwave's 908Mhz --  roughly 3 times shorter usable distance.

 

[NeverDie]

 
I am also mystified by the that.  They are both pretty horrible for similar reasons, with zigbee being even worse due to inferior 2.4Ghz emw propagation characteristics in comparizon to zwave's 908Mhz --  roughly 3 times shorter usable distance.

Yes, if the tx power is the same. Is it?
The quality of the radio and rf design can easily overshadow that in any case.

 

[drvnbysound]

Interested to see where this goes, but I too have a reliable, Zwave network without any issues... Some of my lights are configured to turn on when the adjacent door opens - I see no delay, and they turn on every time. I've been saying this for a while now, but I really do want to make a video for other people to see.

 

[ecborgoyn]

IP Based -
Nest - h34r:  - I hoping no g-advertisements on my thermostat......
 
But seriously - On first skim, looks like a good evolution of the zigbee/802.15.4 stack.

 

[Dean Roddey]

I can't speak to Thread, but a lot of Zigbee's advantage isn't about the speed but the extra intelligence of the modules wrt to managing the network, as I understand it. Technique trumps speed, and if you are faster and have better technique, that's more than just a additive benefit.
 
As to the security requirements of Thread, that's a good thing, IMO. I think that folks are getting more and more aware of security of their devices as more horror stories crop up over time, so anything that doesn't take that seriously is probably going to be at a disadvantage.

 

[jdk972003]

Good point Dean, Zigbee may have not had a choice...they should have tabled the effort rather than create a standard..that's well..not standard!
 
The additional speed for zwave + really equates to powersavings.  It's not like devices are downloading data form the internet (they shouldn't be regardless).  But Z Wave plus is already going to extend battery life to 3-5 years; not sure this disposable world will care about another year on the battery.
 
As to security, its needed, but that does not mean retail buyers know or care about it.
 
Finally, they do have OSRAM joining Thread.  They will make automated light bulbs.  The key is manufacturers have discovered people buy light bulbs vs switches.  They can replace the bulbs themselves and get the same effect.  Not to mention you need 1-8 lightbulbs vs a single switch.  And bulbs burn out and break, so additional sales.
 
Regardless, I agree zwave + brings it to parity with Zigbee in most ways, and with the better spectrum chosen, it's the winner as retail sales show.

 

[Dean Roddey]

Well, Z-wave is hardly standard either. That's one of the big problems with it. They started it so early in order to get to market first that it's been through all kinds of hoops to try to solidify it to something that's useful. That means that there's many ways to skin every Z-Wave cat and trying to support Z-Wave in any really solid way is stupidly difficult because of that. I always call it the non-standard standard. 
 
Zigbee's 'non-standardness', by comparison, is standardized non-standardness. They define different profiles that folks can use, and it makes sense to do so. But those profiles are well defined. So they offer the ability to target specialized markets, and that's what you are interpreting as non-standard, but it's really not. Z-Wave's non-standardness is unintentional, by comparison, within what is supposedly a single protocol.
 
On the battery life, you have to be careful about that. In many cases battery life depends on a usage that will never work in a real automation system. For instance, a z-wave controller can't talk to batter powered devices until they wake up. If that's every 8 hours, that's pretty useless because if you ever need to restart your controller, it could be up to 8 hours before it could get the status of some of the devices. Bring those down to useful wake-up periods and the battery life drops significantly.
 
Z-Wave is the retail winner now because they started it so much earlier and targeted a much lower end market. As Zigbee grows and economies of scale build up, it's greater intelligence might make it a better option, particularly when it's also often going to be used within commercial automation systems, making it easier to integrate Zigbee devices in a built in way.