To Belden or Not to Belden

[felixrosbergen]

Hi All,

Witihn the next 2 weeks i need to tell my builder/developer what cabling to put into the walls.

I want drops in various locations of: 2 RG6QS (Swept to 3ghz) + 2 Cat5e 350 mhz.

The questions are:
- What suppliers provide this type of combo cable?

I am hoping i can convince the building that a cable is a cable and that he will run the combo for the same price as the original intened regular coax/phone plus whatever difference in cable price plus his own reasonable markup.


- What is the rough premium for Belden cabling. 20% more expensive?? 50% more expensive?

- Suggestions on suppliers and model numbers would be greatly appreciated.

So far i have found Belden 7876S in Belden's catelogue, but i can't seem to find this with online vendors.

What is a descent combo cable for a decent price...? Who stocks and ship Belden 7876S and is that even the 'right' combo cable. I will be specifying the cable to the builder, so i want to roughly know how much the canle is so he doesnt rip me off.

For all the other stuff i think i will just specify 22/4 stranded (stranded to reduce the change or problems due to potential sloppy install by a contractor, i know termination will be more difficult) for all motions, door sensors, etc. I am planing to put in AC smokes so i assume i run regular 22/4 instead of firewire to the relay contact on them.

For speaker wire would i just specify a guage or do i need to say anything else regarding quality?

Any support much appreciated.

MavRic

 

[Steve]

I'm sure there will be a lot of opinions on this. My personal opinion is I think Belden is overhyped and overpriced. I do believe cable is cable as long as the specs are the same. I have never used combo cable so I can't comment, but I have heard it is more difficult to pull and not as flexible. But if thats what you want and are comfortable with it, then thats all that counts. I know I use Keystone Cable and others like Rob have and seem to be satisfied with it and it is way less expensive. The RG6 is solid copper core and all the specs are the same.

As for the speaker wire, be just as adamant about the specs. I used 14/4 oxygen free high strand count. Will my ears know the difference (especially for distributed audio), perhaps not, but I rather have it and not always wonder if I could have done something better.

 

[politics123]

You didn't say where you were located, which does impact availability.

I bought bulk cable from my local electrical supply company (www.dominionelectric.com), for a reasonable price, without any delivery charges. Note that cable is heavy(!!) and shipping can be expensive. They supplied west penn wire (http://www.westpenn-cdt.com)

I find most of these brand arguments boil down to price for reasonable quality (economic term is "satisficing"). There are plenty of arguments that can be made for one brand, type, selection, size, etc of cable over another, but the honest truth is that few people really need to live on the edge of the specification limit, and those that do don't shop based on the price.

Speaker wire (or standard lamp cord if you can get it) is all the same. I have 8 gauge stranded in my house (!), but I got a fantastic deal on a no-name brand. In general it should be sized on length of run and power expected to be transmitted.

 

[felixrosbergen]

wow guys..thanks for the fast responses....

I also heard combo cable is more diificult to pull but then again that bananapeel is easier than the other combo cables.

I am anticpating an argument about installation cost with the building so i would prefer combo cable (under the argument of pulling a cable is pulling a cable so i will only pay the difference in the price of the cable).

I don't necesarilly want or think i need Belden...but for lack of knowledge i guess it sounds good to me..

With the number of runs i will need (15 runs or so in a 2500sqf house) i may need 1500-2000 ft so the premium is not all that bad....

In any case i was just looking at Belden 7913S but i cant seem to find if that cable is 350mhz rated or not. The combo includes 1583R style cable for Cat5e whereas the 7876S includes the 1700R for Cat5e which is 'Datatwist 350'. Does anybody know? I definetly want to be able to do gigabit network connection since my Sage Server will be downstrairs in the basement so i would rip DVD's from somewhere else and move the files..i don't want to wait forever for that kind of stuff...

Located in Souther Connecticut by the way.

 

[Steve]

As long as the Cat5 is certified to 350Mhz you should be good. Be careful with Belden on 1 point, you mentioned Datatwist 305 - well many years ago they made a Datatwist 350 where each pair in the Cat5 was 'bonded' to each other. To terminate not only did you have to separate the wires/untwist, but you had to use a special tool to separate the conductors. It was a major PITA. So just make sure whatever wire you use has 8 individual wires if you enjoy your sanity.

 

[felixrosbergen]

This is the problem I am seeing..it seems the common Belden combo cable for sale s the 7913S which does not appear to be rated for 350. The 7876S is, but i have no idea where to get it.

For the Datatwisr 350 it seems that there is 4 pairs, but that each pair is bonden together...looks like it would be easy to separate the 2 conductors in the pair, but you never know.

 

[Steve]

For the Datatwisr 350 it seems that there is 4 pairs, but that each pair is bonden together...looks like it would be easy to separate the 2 conductors in the pair, but you never know.

Looks can be deceiving! For a pro that works with it all day everyday maybe. But for a novice with it, fahgettaboutit. IMHO you will be making a big mistake using that stuff if you are doing your own terminations.

 

[TCassio]

Combo cable is a good idea but it is kind of impratical for use in a home. I know that in my bedroom I would not want to have my TV, telephone and computer in the same location. TV would be located on the oppisite wall of my bed. My telephone would be next to my bed, and my computer would be on a desk. These locations would also apply to other rooms in the house. Just my $.02.

 

[gatchel]

Personally, I would pull individual cables. Combo cables are a pain to pull. I would also rethink how many CAT5e's are pulled to certain locations. Cat5 can be used for several things like video distribution, IR distribution, etc. You may need more in certain areas.

You could also have the builder install a flexible conduit from certain wall locations to an easily accessable area to make the locations future proof.

It's much easier to do it now with the walls open.

 

[Ranger Digital]

OK, here is another two cents.

Combo cable is overpriced for the most part. Part of my biz is running wire. Its a toss up really. Combo cable CAN be a PITA to pull. I personally have no problem pulling multiple wires out of multiple boxes and saving a TON of money. We usually charge per wire run. But if its a combo cable the wire is MUCH more and the charge is more for the ONE run as its more difficult. But honestly its just not a huge labor saver, for me. SO combo is a waste of money, IMO.

The bottom line is there really is no reason to pay more for the combo cable. Have you considered running the wire yourself and saving the money? Its not hard at all. Just time consuming.

Why are you even considering combo cable? if you builder is taking care of all the wire, what do you care? As long as the right spec wire is pulled, whats the deal with you wanting combo cable? Just curious. share your thoughts.

 

[felixrosbergen]

Ranger,

Thanks for your input. But you hit the nail right on the head.

The building will (hopefully) put in whatever i tell him to put in. The is a devleoper building the house and doing the wiring myself is not an option due to various reasons (i would essentialy be a contractor on his site without insurance etc).

I am not necesarill dead set on the combo cable, i was just hopign to avoid paying for 4 wire pull where i could only pay for one. The currently home features include only basic cable and telephone wiring. So i expect that if i want 4 wires pulled to where they had planned only 1 i would have to pay for 3 extra runs.

I am planning to ask for several PVC conduit from basement to attic and some flexible conduit from basement to ground floor family room TV location and to master bedroom tv location.

Since the attic is matted insulation and not the blown in stuff i am hoping to able to add a lot of wiring later if i have to. I assume getting down into an interior wall from the attic above is easy right? Not so sure about exterior walls do to insulation, is this possible?

You say you charge per wire run. So if i wanted RG6QS and 2 Cat5e350 to somewhere i would be paying 4 times a certain unit rate or would i pay 1 times the unit rate since all cable are going to the same place?. What do you charge for a run (ballpark)? I would not need any terminaiton done. Contractor shoudl put on blank plates and i will replace with keystones later whenever i need something somewhere.

I am really concerned that my long thought of plans for home automation are going to go out the window if i have to pay thousands and thousands for the pre-wire.

 

[sic0048]

Well I don't think that "cable is cable" - but I agree that Belden is priced higher than other decent brands. I use Coleman cable and have always had good results. There are a lot of brands that manufacture their cable in China and the cable doesn't meet the specs a lot of times apparently. This is from Carl Fedders of Coleman cable whom I respect a lot and believe what he says. He posts on AVSforum a lot and always gives a straight answers, whether it benefits the company he works for or not. He has even offered to test any cable you send to him and he'll tell you the actual properties of the cable so you can compare it to the printed specs of the cable.

So stick with the better know, American made cable and you can expect it to match the advertised specs.

Personally I also like to use individual wires vs bundled for all the above reasons: basically it is cheaper (material wise) and I have the ability to pull any cable to any location to meet the need (and not pull a full bundle to run 1 phone, etc).

But since you are paying for the installation, you'll really need to talk to the builder and get a price for labor quoted both ways. If they charge by the wire (and not the run) then you may loose out on any cost advantage.

FYI - I used to be an advocate for the 2 RG-6 and 2 Cat5e wires to every location, but I have since started pulling different wire. I've started pulling less RG-6 and started to pull mulitible precision coax cable (I happen to run mini coax because it is cheaper) with 3-5 runs to each TV. I've also started running more Cat5e wires due to the fact that with the use of baluns, you can send pretty much any signal that you need. This should also be a way of semi "future proofing" things since most signals will probably be able to use the balun system for the foreseeable future.

 

[Sacedog]

I agree with Sic; cable is not cable. Certain cables may come closer to that analogy, such as security 22/2 or similar, but high performance cable, such as network cabling, is very different from manufacturer to manufacturer.

There are two factors to consider when choosing cable. First, is how easy is the cable to work with. If you are installing it yourself, this is very important. If you are having your builder install it, let them worry about it. Second is the cables performance. This can vary greatly; and just because a brand claims that their cable is swept to 350Mhz, doesn't mean it is.

In my experience, Belden is one of the most consistant cable manufacturers out there. Time and time again, their cables test to a minimum of what they claim, and usually higher than that. That's not to say that there isn't other cables out there that don't do that as well; I have just had very good luck with them.

And frankly, if you purchase from tselectronic.com, Beldens prices are comperable to Coleman cable (I'm not knocking Coleman...they have a good product...I'm just saying that you should shop around).

 

[v1rtu0s1ty]

Just want to share my experience with coaxial cable. I bought 1000 ft of RG6QS from Beachaudio.com. I'm very happy that I only paid $98 and a $5 shipping. Right now, I'm distributing HD signal to a projector in the basement and to the family room via Autopatch 1YDM device from 2 video sources, HDDVD and MythTV. Longest RGBHV and component at 1080i feed using this cable is 110ft which is family room. I don't see any signal lost, color banding or pixelization. I installed 5 coaxial runs from head end to family room, to master bedroom and to the loft.

The product I bought is Steren 200-936wh 1000' Pull Box Rg6 Quad-shield Coaxial Cable Ul.

 

[Steve]

As far as its capability to deliver data like gigabit, etc, cable IS cable assuming my underlined statement about specs. Granted if you are dealing with a fly by night place whose cable does not meet their specs then that invalidates the statement. But if the cable truly meets its specs and is swept to meet/exceed 350mhz, it will work fine regardless of the brand or price. Sure there are other things to consider like jacket type, etc, but from an electrical and practical perspective, it all works the same especially for standard in home stuff. Not knocking Belden or other known brands, but alot of the money you are paying is going to their name and advertising, etc.